Bleeding Host in Poland confirmed to be the true body and blood of Christ




In Poland a consecrated host fell on the floor and picked up and placed in a container with water, according to the report by Bishop Zbigniew Kiernikowski of Legnica on Sunday. The falling of the host and it’s preservation occurred on the Christmas day of 2013, after the host was conserved in a container with water by the Parish Priest, it gradually began to turn to change color, possessing red-bloody stains.

“In February 2014, a tiny red fragment of the Host was separated and put on a corporal. The Commission ordered to take samples in order to conduct the thorough tests by the relevant research institutes," said Bishop Kiernikowski

The bleeding host had for sometimes now been attributed to have “the hallmarks of a Eucharistic miracle”

The final medical statement by the Department of Forensic Medicine found that “in the histopathological image, the fragments (of the Host) were found containing the fragmented parts of the cross striated muscle. It is most similar to the heart muscle. Tests also determined the tissue to be of human origin, and found that it bore signs of distress."

Bishop Kiernikowski said he believe that the Bleeding host has “a Eucharistic miracle", he told reporters that he took this case to the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. And the Vatican in April approved the findings and reports of the case and recommended the parish priest, Fr. Andrzej Ziombrze “to prepare a suitable place" for the Host so that the faithful could venerate it.

“I hope that this will serve to deepen the cult of the Eucharist and will have deep impact on the lives of people facing the Host," Bishop Kiernikowski said.


wpsd_autopost:
1

300 comments

  1. Patrick Gannon Reply

    Good grief, has anyone contacted the police? Is there an active murder investigation? Did anyone check the sample for pathogens or viruses, or analyzed it for diseases? Has a DNA test been performed? Has everyone involved been investigated and interrogated? Are there any missing persons? Are there any labs nearby with human tissue? Have the other hosts been tested? Are parishioners eating hosts with human tissue baked into them? When it comes to that Church, I’d make like a shepherd and get the flock out of there!

    1. FON Reply

      How disgustingly disrespectful of you Patrick.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        How disgustingly inappropriate and disrespectful not to test the sample and make sure people aren’t being fed diseased tissue that someone included in the cracker dough. Chances that this is a real miracle approach zero, given that we have no reason or evidence to believe the laws of nature have ever been broken or superseded by the supernatural. Chances that this is a hoax, nearly 100%, particularly since the motive appears to be financial – get those pilgrims to bring their offerings!

        1. Sylva Rodriguez Reply

          You obviously are not a believer in Christ. Miracles do happen. I agree you are so disrespectful.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Thank you for sharing your personal opinion of me, but it doesn’t change the fact that the very real possibility exists that this is a scam or hoax, or even worse, a case of contamination that could have (might still) make people ill. As for miracles – show me an amputated limb that grows back, and then we can talk about miracles. Yahweh can do so many things, but He can’t grow back amputee limbs – why is that?

        2. Stephen Reply

          Patrick, there are hundreds of documented cases such as this one spanning through several centuries. In every case, they have the same blood type, are all found to be alive blood (not dead), are from heart tissue having undergone serious trauma (similar to a crucifixion) and are almost always independently verified. Some to look up would be the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano as well as St. Januarius. These miracles are 100% confirmed by science and in the case of St. Januarius are still ongoing – they occur every year, continuing to defy science. God created the world, but the laws of nature have been broken many times (Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe, several of Marian apparitions, Eucharistic Miracles, incorrupt Catholic saints dead bodies, etc.). There are thousands of miracles of evidence – these are what converted me from atheism – not to mention seeing living proof of them as well.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            “Patrick, there are hundreds of documented cases such as this one spanning through several centuries.” Hundreds? OK, list 10 of them. You’re making an outrageous claim, thus the burden of proof is on you. Your personal credibility is at stake here. The last one of these in 2015 turned out to be a fungus. The Church has apparently dropped this most current one like a hot potato, given that there has been no follow up to the story. The RCC wants this one to die a silent death as they most probably, correctly figure, there’s some criminal activity or at best a hoax at work here. If they had real evidence of a miracle, don’t you think we’d hear more about it? On the ‘miracles of the church’ website, they list 3 miracles, all of which happened centuries before modern science. Give me 7 more.
            .
            “In every case, they have the same blood type, are all found to be alive blood (not dead), are from heart tissue having undergone serious trauma (similar to a crucifixion) and are almost always independently verified.” In every case – hunh – going back centuries, hunh? You mean back before science even had tests for such things? We didn’t even know about blood types until the early 1900s, but I’ll be satisfied if you can give me a handful of documented cases in the last 200 years when we had blood typing available. Speaking of technology, Jesus was supposed to be a god, but he didn’t even know that germs killed millions of people. He even told his followers it was unnecessary to wash one’s hands before eating. Most of these miracles were “tested” and “documented” at a time when the sun was still going around the earth and leeches were used to remove toxins from people. They didn’t even know what germs were and how a host might become contaminated.
            .
            “Some to look up would be the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano as well as St. Januarius.” Lanciano occurred in the 8th century. It’s completely unprovable from a scientific perspective because there is no clear trail of evidence. There’s no way to prove what really happened 1300 years ago. The event was said to have occurred in 700 CE, but wasn’t even reported till 1000 years later. Lanciano’s miracle cannot be proven by science. St. Januarius died even earlier in 305 CE, and his miracle did not have anything to do with the host – it was said that some of his blood was saved – this claim also made over 1000 years after he died – and that this blood had some interesting interesting properties – none of which has ever been proven. Clearly there was no DNA testing or blood-typing in those days. These cases are most clearly NOT “documented” in any useful way to confirm their veracity.
            .
            “These miracles are 100% confirmed by science and in the case of St. Januarius are still ongoing – they occur every year, continuing to defy science.” No they don’t. The alleged blood of St. Januarius is locked up in a vial and the RCC refuses to let it be opened. Scientists have proposed theories for what might be in the vial, but they are not permitted to test it using modern testing methods. You know, this information is pretty easy to get online before you go public with misinformation, thus bringing into question your credibility.
            .
            “God created the world, but the laws of nature have been broken many times (Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe, several of Marian apparitions, Eucharistic Miracles, incorrupt Catholic saints dead bodies, etc.).” There is actually no accepted scientific evidence for any of these “miracles,” otherwise they would no longer be debated. Whether your god created the world is also unknown, as there is no objective evidence for this god. I’m unaware of scientifically documented cases of the laws of nature being broken, but would be happy to review these if you can provide them.
            .
            “There are thousands of miracles of evidence – these are what converted me from atheism – not to mention seeing living proof of them as well.” I’m unaware of a single miracle with scientific evidence to support it. That might convert me from agnosticism – so bring them on. Prove it – but understand that your credibility has been damaged by the misinformation and unsupported claims in your post, so you’re going to have to bring very convincing information to overcome the lack of trust any honest observer would have for your claims.

          2. Kelsey Hinds

            Stephen thank you so much for sharing your story! What a beautiful story in such troubled times. It’s so nice to hear a former atheists who has converted! I pray for atheists all the time, I pray they convert and find God just like you did. God still loves them very much, I just pray the come to realize that. It really moves me to hear stories like yours so I just wanted to say thanks!

          3. Margarida

            Patrick Gannon: Miracles are just that – MIRACLES – not a scientific experiment!!! You have allowed Satan to take control of your soul and is speaking through you. Thankfully, we believers REJECT SATAN!!! As Pope Francis recently stated “GOD IS STRONGER THAN SATAN”. In the end of times, GOD WILL PREVAIL!!! My fellow Christians, let’s pray for Patrick to truly see God’s Light.

          4. Patrick Gannon

            Have you read the entire bible? Are you really familiar with the acts of Yahweh? “In the end of times, God will prevail” you proclaim. So why worry about it if it’s preordained. Why does there have to be a big battle between Satan and God if the outcome is already known? What if Satan doesn’t show up? After all, Satan is not the one with bloodlust. Yahweh kills millions in the bible – count up for me how many people Satan kills.

        3. Daily Marcellina Reply

          Patrick Cannon, sounds you r an atheist. S sad

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Agnostic, actually. I was born with a brain, and eventually I got over my Catholic indoctrination and started using it.

        4. Jerry Ariesga Reply

          You believe it hoax because ypu simply closed your doors to possibilities. I pity you brother for not believing on this one. Already said that tne tissue is part of a human flesh particularly in the heart, this miracle first happend in lanciano italy when an ordained priest have a doubt in the eucharist to be the body of Christ, IF that was a diseased real flesh included in the cracker you said how possibly it bled? If you can see all, crackers you have said is in white color. Let us pun in an instance that it is really a diseased thingy that you have said why did it bleed? Think of it twice. Again i pity you for not believing on the eucharist. Christ him self instituted the Eucharist by the night before his passion.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Why is this undocumented, unsupported, so-called miracle, so important to you? This thread has received amazing contribution compared with most other threads (except those having to do with sex). Why are people so wrapped around the axle over a miracle account that comes with no documentation or evidence? Why the desperation for a real sign? The transubstantiation apparently isn’t good enough. That’s pretty hard to believe in, isn’t it? So anything that smacks of a “real” miracle gets all this attention, though it’s a very poor example of a miracle, given the total lack of evidentiary support.
            .
            The article says it was tested – so do all the other articles in similar publications that copy each other and say the same thing – but not a one of them says who did the testing or makes the reports available. Why are you so gullible? If they had these reports, they would have included source links – that’s what responsible journalists do. This is junk journalism and you people who believe this nonsense are PT Barnum’s suckers, and you’re upset with me for pointing out this to you. Well, deal with it. Stop responding to me and email the Vatican and ask if this is a Vatican supported or accepted miracle, and ask them for the evidence that the article alludes to but does not include.

          2. Belinda Stephens

            To Kathy and Patrick……1) Kathy….you cannot argue with an idiot…they always find problems for every solution; he’s not going to hear you….ever…he is a “closed” door living in darkness. 2)Patrick…..for myself and myself only….not trying to “change” your mind; I would rather live my life believing there is a God…die to find out there’s not than to live my life NOT believing in God and then after death finding out there is…..just sayin. I wonder what could have happened to you through-out your life to make you so bitter towards God….a God you say doesn’t exist. Don’t you think that is a lot of wasted energy??? If you don’t believe in something why even question it or others that do believe???

          3. Patrick Gannon

            Did I say gods or afterlives don’t exist? I don’t think they do, but it’s possible. What I’ve said repeatedly is undeniable – that we have no objective evidence for these things.
            .
            You say you’d rather live your life believing there is a god, and then be proven wrong when you die; but what if you believe in the wrong god? What it Allah really is the true god, or what if the JWs were right, or the Southern Baptists, or the Hindus? You’re throwing the dice any way you look at it. Throughout history there have been thousands of gods, and we have no evidence for any of them.
            .
            I take the stance that if there is a god, then this god has gone out of his way to make sure we don’t know about his existence, and I think this god, would be more likely to reward those who question his existence and seek truth, rather than those who are simply sheep accepting what they’ve been told, and failing to use the gifts of logic, reason and critical thinking. Read the parable of the talents and just imagine how angry your god might be that you never used these gifts you were born with.

        5. Andrew Eberlein Reply

          Want some miracles? How about incorrupt bodies? Note: incorrupt does not mean completely free from deterioration, but remarkably free from deterioration.

          First, fast list of many since you claimed you wanted 100 miracles. This isn’t 100, but hopefully it is enough:
          St Etheldreda was born and died in the 600s, body was claimed incorrupt in 1106. Her body is still here today, though I guess we haven’t checked on it in a while.
          Bl. Margaret of Castello died in 1320. In 1558 her remains were transferred because, though her coffin and clothes were rotten, her body was incorrupt. Again, we haven’t check on it in a while.
          St. Catherine of Bologna died in 1463 and you can see her incorrupt body today on display.
          Saint Rita died in 1457 and her incorrupt body is on display.
          St. John Vianney died in 1859 and his body (wearing a wax mask, again, not completely free of deterioration) is on display in Ars France.

          Now my favorite! St. Bernadette Soubirous died in 1879. She was exhumed in 1909 and while her crucifix and rosary had oxidized, her body was incorrupt. She was exhumed again in 1919 and 1925 to take relics and make a wax mask. In 1928 Doctor Comte published a report on yet another exhumation. It is rather long and I’m already fearing plagiarism with this post, so I’ll present some highlights here.
          “I would have liked to open the left side of the thorax to take the ribs as relics and then remove the heart which I am certain must have survived.”
          “What struck me during this examination, of course, was the state of perfect preservation of the skeleton, the fibrous tissues of the muscles (still supple and firm), of the ligaments, and of the skin, and above all the totally unexpected state of the liver after 46 years. One would have thought that this organ, which is basically soft and inclined to crumble, would have decomposed very rapidly or would have hardened to a chalky consistency. Yet, when it was cut it was soft and almost normal in consistency.”

          Now of course you might claim that this is all a big hoax, and I have no proof it is not. You have no proof that it is. The scientific evidence is here for you to accept. Science isn’t about creating models then forcing the universe to conform to those models, it is about creating models that conform to the universe. So if these bodies truly are corrupt, not only can we have great faith that God wanted to keep them corrupt for some reason, but science should accept these facts as well.

          I do appreciate your concern for the well being of others, but I would also appreciate if you could be more respectful to your fellow humans.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Andrew you presented no scientific evidence. That would require a chain of evidence that ensured that the condition of the subject was known and not tampered with from the time of death to now. We also know that certain burial conditions can cause the skin to take on a waxy, soap-like complexion, and we know that this condition does not happen just to Catholics – they seem to dig up more of their dead than anyone else for some gruesome reason. We also know that this condition has occurred to individuals who are less than “holy" and indeed were not good people in life. You quoted a doctor who wanted to open up the body, but was not permitted to do so. The doctor confirmed that the body was deteriorating, such that they had to put a wax covering on it to prevent further deterioration. Until proven otherwise, the most obvious conclusion is that this is a natural process. It may occur far more often than we think – it’s just that most of us don’t go around irreverently digging up dead saints like the RCC does.
            .
            You speak of respect for fellow humans, but what if they are being scammed? What if the Bishop at this town wanted to bring in some much needed revenue, so he invented this miracle? What if there is actually criminal activity involved here? If this is heart tissue, where did it come from? Who died recently, and under strain? Perhaps what was reported in terms of heart strain is common for heart attack victims. This article and a number of others that mostly copy it verbatim in other publications offer no evidence whatsoever for any testing that may have taken place. The researchers are not identified, no report is identified, no sources are provided to this material. It is asserted that the Vatican approved this as a miracle in some articles but not all, and there is no evidence presented that the Vatican has indeed accepted this as a miracle. The burden of proof is on those making outrageous claims, sn no such proof is provided here.
            .
            What we know is that miracles are the least likely occurrence. If miracles were common, then they wouldn’t be miracles. Given that they are the least likely explanation, something can only be deemed a miracle if all other possible explanations are removed – and that clearly has not happened here.

          2. Kelsey Hinds

            Man I could not have put that into better words myself. I tried to bring up the point of St. Padre Pio’s body being incorrupt and how he suffered the stigmata but nothing seemed to change the minds of the people who don’t believe. I was told that God and Satan are fairy tales. I will stand up for my Catholic faith any day of the week, and I remain humble and truthful just as you did. Even tho on the inside I feel very different. So thank you for the wonderful post! And may God have mercy on the people who don’t believe. They will remain in my prayers.

          3. Nnamdi Oranye

            Infact I read this article some while back and it mentioned the Pathologist, the institution and the state. Atheists are simply burdensome, the little knowledge they have takes up all their brain function, they simply have to beat other ppl with it. This morose wise arse is a typical eg. Stop wasting your breath

        6. Jihan Perez Zeltner Reply

          @ Patrick Ganon

          This is sad. When I was reading your comments it made me think must be Satan is rejoicing for you. Do not be deceived by your own wisdom, it’s folly. Like King Pharaoh who’s heart was hard.These people here are instruments to give you light. God will not come after you, but it is clear that if you deny God, he will deny you also when the accountable time comes.

          I would not say anything here except this quote from the Bible.
          “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, …”
          ‎Matthew 7:6

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Prove Satan exists. There is no objective evidence for such a being.
            .
            You may recall that Yahweh hardened the heart of Pharaoh and then tortured and killed innocent Egyptians. Yahweh, if he existed would be a very evil god. How many people in the bible did Satan kill? How many innocents did Yahweh murder?
            .
            You’re clearly threatening me with Hell – so tell me, which of the four Hell’s will I be going to? You do know that the Church incorrectly translated four different words to the pagan word “Hell,” right?
            .
            I actually prefer the passage before the one you cited: ““Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2 For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s[a] eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your neighbor,[b] ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s[c] eye.
            .
            There are some very large specks in the eyes of believers.

          2. Miguel

            For those who believe no explanation is needed and for those who do not,no explanation is possible.

          3. Patrick Gannon

            “For those who believe no explanation is needed and for those who do not,no explanation is possible.”

            WRONG. Many of us who do not believe, would do so if evidence was provided. Please note that explanations are of little value without evidence to back them up. You can explain to me all day long how a miracle took place, but until you can show me how something immaterial affected the material particles in that host, then you have nothing of value to offer. Claiming a miracle happened, means claiming that he laws of physics are broken, and we have never seen evidence of that happening. We know all the things that can affect particles with an extremely high degree of reliability. There are no actions of particles that we cannot explain. There are no unseen forces acting on the particles of that microbe-contaminated host to cause it to change colors. What happened is perfectly natural and explained by the rules of our physical matter reality.

            Let’s take a little closer look at your post: If I believe in unicorns, then no explanation is needed. I can simply believe in them, and you won’t question me or ask me why I am believing in something for which there is no evidence? My belief in unicorns is good enough to justify and prove the existence of unicorns, right? That’s what you’re saying. And if you don’t believe in unicorns and I trot one out and present it to you, will you continue to lack belief? That’s a cute little quip you posted, Miguel, but it’s nonsensical.

        7. Anton Reply

          Hello sir Patrick, if you doubt the happenings of miracles you can do a quick research about Kisha e Lacit, a church in my country. During communism 32 atheists communists were sent by the secret service to take down the church. Just when they started destroying it, all of them were paralysed in an instant. 32 men, same time, same symptoms. They were sent to Austria for recuperation, after their recovery they all converted to catholics. The communists blamed the milk. But I dont think milk paralyses 32 healthy men in an instant same time. Sir, you may not believe, but please do not come to such pages and denying our God. Many other miracles happened there aswell. Milions of people worldwide come to visit it. From all religions. I highly doubt it is a hoax. Thank for your time sir.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Anton, I can’t find anything on the web regarding your so-called “miracle.” Please provide some source information. While Communism professes to be an atheist religion (in some ways, Communism itself could be considered a religion that worships the state), not all Communists were by definition atheists. Most probably weren’t. Since I can’t find any report of your miracle (for example: “Your search – Kisha e Lacit miracle 32 atheists paralyzed – did not match any documents”), I can’t comment on what may or may not have contributed to their condition, but I’m sure there’s a rational explanation, probably something to do with the milk you mentioned.
            .
            We have to look at what is the most likely explanation for things we don’t understand. A miracle, by definition, is the least likely explanation, because miracles are rare, and rare things are therefore not the most likely explanation for something not yet understood. Jumping to the conclusion that a miracle has occurred, when miracles are the least likely explanation, gives away the confirmation bias sought by the believer.
            .
            I am not denying your god. I am questioning the existence of your god and asking for objective evidence of his/her/its existence. The very foundation for the Abrahamic gods have been washed out. There was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan. Non-religious scholars are largely in agreement over these points, and without these things, there is nothing upon which to base the existence of Yahweh, your god. There may or may not be gods and afterlives; humans do not know. We have no objective evidence for such things, and our brains know that. Yet we lie to ourselves and tell our brains to believe things they know they have no evidence for. I think this must necessarily set up internal cognitive conflicts, which cannot be healthy for us, and such internal conflicts might explain why so many Christians are so “hostile to the other.”
            .
            Sorry Anton, but “When you believe in things that you don’t understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain’t the way.” (Stevie Wonder) The year is 2016. It’s time to retire the primitive superstitions of the Iron Age.

        8. Sandra Reply

          Patrick, I am so sorry that you have been so hurt by someone in the Church. I have prayed to ur Blessed Mother to intercede for you and The Father toput someone in your life to show you the beauty of Christ’s Church. God bless you.

        9. Natalie Cox Reply

          Before commenting, you should research how the investigations are done. Typically the investigators are independent medical teams from many areas of expertise, and are NOT affiliated with the church. The investigation does include pathological and microbiological reports (see the investigation from Salt Lake City recently that suspected a miracle but was found to be a yeast fungi and was reported by the church as such). That is why it take so long–YEARS. If it noticed the miracle occurred On Christmas Day 2013 and was not approved by the Vatican until after an exhaustive investigation is completed, approved in 2016. Those are the facts.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Maybe before posting, the author should have looked at and documented how the investigation was done. If you keep reading, you’ll discover that the available evidence indicates that the Bishop sent the sample to one lab and didn’t get the results he wanted, so he sent a contaminated sample to another lab and got what he wanted, and then proclaimed it to be a miracle. There is no evidence I can find that suggests that the Vatican agrees that it is indeed a miracle.
            .
            You said, “the miracle occurred On Christmas Day 2013 and was not approved by the Vatican until after an exhaustive investigation is completed, approved in 2016” Please, please, please provide evidence that the Vatican approved this miracle. I’m pretty good at searching, and I can find no evidence to support this assertion. I cannot agree that it is a “fact” until you provide some evidence to support it.
            .
            There must be some official Vatican recognition of this so-called miracle. Please find it for us, along with the evidence that they used to make the determination.

        10. Alkanse Zabrinski Wawatchinanggo Reply

          Your multiple questions just leave you ignorant of how an investigation should go about. Should I tell you the concepts and procedures like a two years old?

      2. May Castro-Africa Reply

        That is so DISRESPECTFUL of you. Even the satanist believes that that is the Body and Blood of Christ. If you dont believe….WHY are you eve on this site?? Trolling???

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          I just checked the media again for an update on this story – and there is none. The Church allowed this story to die a silent death. They knew something was not right. Hosts do not develop blood in them unless someone has tampered with them – otherwise why don’t all hosts exhibit this condition?
          .
          The lack of disrespect is to those who may have consumed contaminated substances. If this event had been real, there would have been continuing media coverage as the samples were tested to ensure that no criminal activity took place. There hasn’t been a single word of update on the story since it broke. It’s almost certainly a scam, or just some gossip that got out of hand.
          .
          And, you don’t seem to know the definition of “troll.” I’m on topic.

          1. Kelsey Hinds

            Patrick I have wonderful news for you, God still loves you. I will start praying for you. Please know that I do not wish to fight because that would do us no good, but please know there is still time for you to repent and live in the peaceful bliss of our Lord. God Bless

          2. Patrick Gannon

            Prove this god of yours exists. Till then His love for me is useless and immaterial. As usual, you default to the Christian Mafia tactic which deploys extortion. I must believe, say and do what you and others tell me, or I will be choosing to go to eternal torment, like the storekeeper who refuses to pay the Mafia goon his take, and therefore “chooses” to have his knees removed. The Catholic god is a Mafia thug who uses extortion to get what He wants.
            .
            Fortunately there is no reason to fear. The Church translated four different words, (Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus) to the pagan word Hell (Hel), and none of those words means Hell as we think of it. Please look them up. They also mistranslated the word “aionion” to “eternal” but it means “of an age” and ages always end, so Hell is not what they said it was and it’s not eternal, and no good god would ever send anyone to eternal torment, and if such an evil being existed, it would be fair to fear this monster, but certainly there should be no respect for anyone worshipping Him.

          3. Kelsey Hinds

            Patrick this is why God gave you free will. You are free to choose what you say, do and believe. Yet whatever you choose he still loves you. His mercy endures forever!

          4. Patrick Gannon

            If I have free will, it’s because humans evolved it. Whether we really have free will is questionable and the subject of much debate in scientific and philosophical circles. If God exists, I would assume She wants me to use the tools I evolved to decipher reality as best I can using intellect, logic, reason, critical thinking, etc. The Parable of the Talents tells us what happens to those who don’t use such gifts.
            .
            You suggest again that belief is a choice. One doesn’t choose to believe; you either do or you don’t,. based on what you’ve learned, or been told or been exposed to. I couldn’t “choose” to believe in Hinduism – I don’t know enough about it to even consider that choice. I’ve investigated Christianity extensively, and the more I learn, the more I realize it’s all myth. I couldn’t “choose” to believe now if I wanted to – it would just be paying lip service, and surely an all-powerful being that takes perverse pleasure in monitoring and recording everything we do with our clothes off, would also take a passing interest in the fact that I was pretending to believe something by paying lip service to it. If you want me to believe, you’re going to have to give me reason to do so that is based on objective evidence, and not on threat of an imaginary punishment – I investigated Hell and the one the RCC generally refers to – Gehenna – the Jerusalem town dump – it’s been closed for a very long time, and you have to want Jesus to be a monster in order to interpret his words about Gehenna as anything but allegorical.
            .
            You say “his mercy endures forever, and yet in your prior post you warned me of an eternity of torment. Torture is never love. Sending innocent aborted, miscarried or stillborns to Hell is not love or mercy. Show me a single parent torturing their child and tell me that parent loves the child. The very concept that our species is born sick and commanded to be well, and then sentenced to billions and trillions of endless years in excruciating torment, while the longest we could have possibly sinned is the few decades we lived here, is as evil a concept as mankind has ever come up with. How can one be expected to have respect for an individual who would worship such a god? The only excuse is the fear and psychological abuse that Christians were indoctrinated with.

          5. Kelsey Hinds

            Patrick you must have me confused with someone else, I never said anything about hell. You seem like you do a lot of research, I have something for you to research. St. Padre Pio! A wonderful Saint who bore the scars of Christ. I also wish you would research St. Padre Pio 3 days of darkness. If you still do not believe then Patrick, you will never hear a word from me again. Just know you will always be in my prayers.

          6. Patrick Gannon

            Kelsey you said, “please know there is still time for you to repent and live in the peaceful bliss of our Lord.” Clearly the opposite of the peaceful bliss of our Lord is Hell. What else would it be? Clearly your insinuation that I need to repent indicates that you believe I’m going to Hell if I don’t. What else could you have been referring to?
            .
            And what’s so great about bliss? It won’t be you. The prayer says, “thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” That’s God’s will, not ours. We lose free will in heaven. We become zombies. How else could we have peaceful bliss? If we still had our wits about us and still had free will, we would be overwhelmed by the angst and horror at all the billions of people roasting in Hell, many of them friends and family who simply failed to believe, say or do the right thing. Nobody in heaven could be happy if they knew of people suffering in Hell, and if they could be happy at the misery of others, then they probably aren’t good enough to be in heaven, wouldn’t you think? Whoever it is in heaven, it won’t be “you” the “you” that you think of in your head, because that “you” is probably far too decent a human being to enjoy the idea that billions of people are roasting for all of eternity and you can’t do anything about it. You’d have to be a drugged out, zombified, shell of a human in order to enjoy that – and that’s what peaceful bliss is. I don’t care about that person. That won’t be me. If “I” make it to heaven, “I” won’t be “me.” I’ll be someone else who is essentially brain dead. I don’t see the attraction. I’d rather just be dead. The carrot of heaven does not appeal to me, and I see no biblical or reality based support for the stick of Hell, so I think I’ll just die and be done with it all when the time comes. No fuss, no muss.

          7. Kelsey Hinds

            I still never said anything about hell. Because there is still a chance for purgatory. But what really got my attention is you said IF I make it to heaven, which means there is somewhere inside of you that believes there is a heaven. I hope you get the opportunity to look up St. Padre Pio. Especially The 3 Days of Darkness. If that doesn’t make you want to come back to the Catholic Faith, then Godspeed. If it does I’m willing to help you with whatever you need. No questions asked

          8. Patrick Gannon

            I’m sorry Kelsey, but that sounds pretty disingenuous. Why would I need to repent if not to avoid some sort of punishment? You say right here that I have a chance for purgatory, and that clearly implies that you think I’ll be going to Hell if I don’t believe what you believe. Christians almost always suggest to non-believers that they are going to Hell. You are no different. It’s so very Christian of you folks to do that, whether you say it directly, which is more honest, or whether you not so subtly hide it in disingenuous language, as you have.

            Have you looked up the four words that the RCC translated to the pagan word Hell? (Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus). I’m just not all that concerned. One is a place of death, not punishment, one is a shuttered town dump, and the other two are of Greek pagan origin.

            When I said “If" I make it to heaven, I was speaking in a literary hypothetical. Some of the gospels, such as Mark, are written in a very intricate, well organized, mirror/circular fashion that clearly illustrates the use of literary techniques commonly used at the time. Mark’s gospel is not the result of oral tradition – it is a very carefully crafted literary work of art that is designed to tell a particular story intended to help turn a mythical Jesus into a real Jesus in order to make it easier to spread the gospel to less sophisticated people. Matthew disagreed with some of Mark, so he copied and altered, and Luke disagreed with Matthew, so he copied and altered while John uses a completely different literary technique to rewrite the three prior gospels to his way of liking. It’s all based on mythology. My point though, is that if the gospels can be written in a literary style, and if their primary character can use various techniques such as parables and allegory to get across his message, then I think I can use a little literary license when writing as well. There is zero evidence for either the Catholic heaven or hell, so my writing style should not be interpreted to mean I think these things exist – because the probabilities in my mind are very close to zero. You nit-picked me without addressing my point – which is how to question how heaven can be peaceful bliss without one being turned into a zombie first.

            I looked up the Three Days of Darkness and it’s not endorsed by the Holy See, thus is of no value in this Catholic forum. There’s no need to debate something that the RCC itself does not endorse. Take it up with the Church. There is zero evidence for the mass Exodus from Egypt, so a prophecy that mirrors that mythical event is of no consequence. I must wonder though, do you agree that the current pope is an “antipope?" Clearly many of the authors who post articles here do, questioning and countering every halfway civilized thing he says.

            “Adherents of the Three Days of Darkness are usually traditionalist Catholics or sedevacantists. The latter group hopes that a “true pope” will be miraculously designated by an apparition of Saint Peter and Saint Paul; this tangential belief assumes that the most recent pontiffs of the Church are in fact “antipopes”. There is also controversy over whether the twentieth-century saint and stigmatist Saint Pio endorsed and taught on the future Three Days of Darkness as the authenticity of the alleged words of Saint Pio are disputed.[4][5]

          9. Kelsey Hinds

            I never once insinuated you were going to hell or purgatory. You were the one that brought up hell in the first place. Only God can judge where you are going. Just because I said you should repent doesn’t mean your going to hell. Back to St. Padre Pio how do you explain his body being incorrupt. He died in 1968 and in 2008 before being canonized they found his body incorrupt. Along with hundreds of other saints. There are many scientists and forensic teams who are floored by this. You know why??? Because it’s a miracle. And just for the record I was very sincere in helping you get back into Catholicism. When it all comes down to it I don’t even know you. I was just trying to help you. I haven’t even hardly read anyone else’s comments because I’ve been so wrapped up in yours. So it is what it is I guess. Good Luck

          10. Patrick Gannon

            Kelsey, what else could you have possibly meant? From my perspective, you seem to be trying to save me from Hell, and you think because you don’t specifically use those words that I don’t know what you’re talking about? I was born and raised Catholic. I know when Hell, or the threat thereof is being referenced – but let’s drop it. I have little to repent for, and if I do need to make amends, I will make them to whoever I hurt, and your god is supposed to be all-powerful and can’t be hurt – so no need, even if He did exist.
            .
            As to the question of incorruptible bodies… it must first be noted that just because something has not yet been explained, in this or any other subject, does not mean “God did it." This is called the “God of the Gaps" argument, but it makes your god weak when you argue it. God was once responsible for lightning and earthquakes and comets and volcanoes, the firmament, and for the sun going around the earth; so just because we don’t have an answer to a question doesn’t mean “God did it." Secondly the Catholic Church has distanced itself from this process as a condition for sainthood. Non-Catholics and indeed some rather unsavory people have also been found to share in this condition. It’s not a Catholic phenomenon. Catholics just gruesomely dig up more of their dead saints than anyone else, I guess. Cadavers start decomposing once they are moved or discovered, and so in most cases are then treated with something to maintain the appearance as long as possible. This might be wax or other substances. I’m curious if you ever did a google search to see if you could find a rational explanation for this condition before just believing what you heard or read? Do one now. See what you can learn about ‘incorruptible bodies,’ and then see if that raises your level of skepticism a millimeter or so. HowStuffWorks has a good overview. Damp, alkaline environments can cause skin to undergo a chemical change that turns it into a hard, waxy, soap like substance. They look like something you’d find in a wax museum. Finally, it’s just assumed that this is a very rare phenomenon, but most of us don’t dig up large numbers of dead people. It could be that this is a far more ordinary condition than we think. As for St. Padre Pio, a Reuters article said he was in pretty sad shape and was going to take a fair amount of reconstruction work, when he was first exhumed. There’s nothing supernatural going on here. Come up with a real miracle, verified by science, and there won’t be anything else on the news, just like there’s nothing in the news about this Polish event. If it was real – we’d know it.
            .
            In summary, there are not a lot of scientists and forensics teams stumped by this. I don’t think there are any experienced, competent scientists who would admit to that. I couldn’t really find any scientist you could pin that on – only journalists – Catholic journalists, who seem to have said such things. Please provide some sources. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Surely you’ve heard that before? Don’t bother to provide sources that come from the Church or its affiliates. Those are not unbiased sources.
            .
            As an aside, perhaps you should focus on helping people who ask for your help. It’s rather condescending to assume someone needs help without asking first. It’s rude to walk up to someone on the street and just assume they need your help, without asking first – and that applies to this topic as well. Imagine you’re handling your kids just fine and some busybody steps in and starts talking about how they are going to help you, even if you don’t want it; insinuating that you do need help, that you’re doing it wrong, that you don’t know what you’re doing, that you’re inept? If I want help, I’ll ask. Most people will let you know they want help, if you ask them. Debate or discuss issues with me and I’ll respect you and gladly participate. Insinuate that you’re superior to me because you assume that I need your help, and, not that it should matter to you, but my respect will surely waver.

          11. Kelsey Hinds

            Lol I think you understand clearly my intentions were good. Your trying to make me look like a bully. I have proven once again that God is real because you could not back up as to why these saints bodies are incorrupt!! I think my work here is finished. Prayers are truly a powerful weapon!

          12. Patrick Gannon

            Kelsey, your intentions may have been good in your mind, but as someone who did not request your help, your intentions were misdirected and unappreciated. Debate me if you will, but don’t pretend to “help" me. I don’t need your help, unless that means providing me with objective evidence for your claims. I didn’t think of you as a bully; good heavens, no! (just an expression). That would have to mean that I was intimidated by you, which certainly is not the case. I was just pointing out that in so many discussions that I have with Christians, there comes a point, usually towards the end of the debate or discussion, but often right off the bat, like you, that suggests that I better get in line or face the music – and being Catholics (or recovering Catholics in my case), we all know that means HELL. And there is no Hell. They lied to you. They translated four words that don’t mean Hell as you think of it, into that pagan word, and then fed you visual images from Dante and Milton to scare the pure living bejeeszus out of you – it’s psychological child abuse, that is difficult to overcome. I know, so I point it out when I see it so Catholics are aware of how ingrained this fear is. I hope they will look up the words and learn how the RCC misled us, and how, if they were correct, our condition did not improve with Jesus – it got much worse, as there was no punishing Hell in the bible before he came. Hell was not a place of punishment prior to his mythological creation. (See: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus). I’m going to guess you haven’t read the complete bible, beginning to end, but I surely encourage you to do so, and take note of how women are treated by Yahweh, not to mention the priests of the time, as you read it. You have my permission to skip the pages full of boring “begats!"

            You did not prove “once again that God is real." You haven’t proven once that your god is real. If there was proof, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. I discussed the science behind the body conditions, and suggested how you might educate yourself, but you did not even attempt to refute me, did you? How can you say you proved anything? You don’t seem to understand how this works. If something is rare, that means it is unlikely, and the probabilities are against it, and that means the burden of proof is on the one making the claim – and miracles are highly unlikely. If you claim that there is a miracle here, then you need to trot out your sources and prove it. No such evidence exists, I suspect, or we wouldn’t be discussing it, as science would have confirmed it. With extraordinary claims, I don’t have to prove it didn’t happen – you have to prove it did. You have not even tried to do so. Explain why non-Catholics, including some rather unsavory characters have been found in this condition…
            .
            Yes, perhaps your work here is finished. You have illustrated, as do so many believers, that you cannot and will not back up outrageous claims. If your claim cannot stand up to that scrutiny, then it cannot be accepted as factual. You can continue to lie to your brain which knows what it does and doesn’t know, and “believe" in whatever it is – but that’s what you’re doing – you’re lying to yourself, and deep down your brain knows it. When someone like me comes along and creates cognitive conflict by pointing out that your beliefs are unfounded, that internal cognitive conflict generally gives rise to hostility, which I think is why that is often the point at which I am informed of my eventual station in Hell, or having lost the battle due to a lack of evidence, the believer bails out with self-serving platitudes that attempt to cover up their failure to win, or even really participate in the debate, by presenting an argument for their side. Brush up on your debating skills and I’ll be happy to engage in this or any other topic you care to challenge me on. I respond to a lot of CatholicSay posts. There’s a lot of propaganda being floated (and a lot of barely hidden hostility to the current pope on the part of a number of the authors!).

          13. Kelsey Hinds

            I do not need to have the last word to prove that this is a Eucharistic Miracle. You and I both know they have already done DNA testing and that is why the police are not investigating any further into this. I’m sorry is DNA testing not good enough for you? Even they know that it is a miracle. Think about it, if they Truly believed that someone had been “murdered” like you think, why are they not investigating further. Because there is nothing more to investigate! There is evidence for you. Cold hard evidence whether you like it or not, you have absolutely no evidence backing up your theory because it’s all made up! one more thing and im sure you know this already but just in case you don’t once you are baptized a Catholic your always a Catholic! You can be excommunicated and start to believe that none of this real, but you know the truth Patrick, your always going to be Catholic! I know you will make your back eventually. You can make whatever you want to up and start believing what you are making up in your head, but Once your baptized Catholic your always a Catholic whether you like it or not. And once we are all done living in this world where we are not yet home, you know just as well as I do that we will be judged. All you have to do is read the bible, the Roman Catholic bible that let me remind you Jesus himself wrote. The one and only true bible. And that my friend is all I need I need to say. Anything you have to say back is just gibberish to me (not to sound rude) because you have zero evidence.

          14. Patrick Gannon

            Kelsey, all we have is this: The Department of Forensic Medicine stated that, “In the histopathological image, the fragments of tissue have been found containing the fragmented parts of the cross striated muscle…[The whole] is most similar to the heart muscle with alterations that often appear during the agony. The genetic researches indicate the human origin of the tissue."

            “Histopathological image" means they looked at it with a microscope and supposedly identified heart tissue. As I read this, it asserts that the whole sample was heart tissue – and thus wasn’t a Eucharist at all. Who did the exam? Where is the report? This happened three years ago. The Dept of Forensic Medicine has had nothing further to say on this event as best I can tell from extensive searching.
            .
            They go on to say the genetic research indicates the human origin, but they provide no explanation for what sort of genetic research was conducted. The words, “DNA testing" are not in this or any other article I’ve read on this matter, and no evidence has been provided that I’m aware of to indicate that such testing was done.
            .
            The picture that this article and many others reporting the same thing use, dates back to 2005, so we’ve got a case of junk journalism to begin with. The picture in the article here is not associated with the host in Poland, and they don’t tell you that, but a quick search on the image confirms that the picture has nothing to do with the article – that’s fraudulent, misleading journalism, particularly in a case like this.
            .
            So what do we have? If the RCC really had forensic evidence to support their assertion that this was a real miracle, why doesn’t it trot out the evidence? Where are the digital slides of the samples, so other researchers can look at it? Where is the documented chain of evidence for the samples? Who conducted the research, and what are their credentials? Who peer-reviewed the report? If you turned this in as a science project in school you would fail.
            .
            If we have heart tissue in place of a Eucharist, what’s the most likely thing? Are miracles likely? No, if they were common, they wouldn’t be miracles, so they are the least likely occurrence. What is the most likely? Well we have an outright scam, or perhaps a felony, perhaps even a health issue to deal with. How likely is it that there was a real miracle? Close to zero – because that’s what makes things miracles – that they are extremely unlikely.
            .
            The article goes on to say that the Bishop believed it was a miracle (why not – the tourism would be great for his diocese), and he says he took it to the Vatican which approved it as a miracle in April. Where is that proclamation by the Vatican? Shouldn’t there be some sort of document to confirm that? Why have there been no updates to this story? Why has the research facility maintained silence, and nothing further about this event can be found? If the Vatican actually had this evidence why wouldn’t they trumpet it from the highest mountains? In all likelihood, it’s because they have no such evidence, and they don’t want to make fools of themselves. Just how gullible can believers be?
            .
            What is your point in telling me that I’m stuck with being a Catholic? Is that supposed to hurt me? LOL. What boon does that grant me? If I masturbate and fail to go to confession, I’m going to Hell, Catholic or not, right? The Catholic Church keeps people like me on the rolls because if they didn’t they would have to show just how many members they are actually losing. In case you didn’t know, according to Pew Research, the “nones," or those who are unaffiliated with any religion, and which includes humanists, freethinkers, atheists, agnostics, etc., has become the single largest voting block in America, at 21%, while Catholicism and Evangelical religion have both fallen to 20% and the trend of people leaving the church seems to be accelerating. You’re with the losing team.
            .
            You talk about making things up, but I’m the one asking for evidence. That’s not making things up. What have I made up? Prove I made something up, or stand accused of bearing false witness.
            .
            You said, “All you have to do is read the bible, the Roman Catholic bible that let me remind you Jesus himself wrote." WRONG! You go and ask your priest if Jesus wrote the bible. That’s total nonsense. You don’t know anything about the bible if you say that. Jesus, if he actually lived, didn’t write a single word that we have today – not a word; and he certainly had nothing to do with writing the Old Testament, which was written before he supposedly lived. The NT is written by a number of authors and the only one we’re sure about is Paul who wrote first, some 20 years after Jesus supposedly died, and for Paul, Jesus wasn’t a real human being, he was a celestial god. It wasn’t until the Mark gospel 20 years after that, that Jesus became a human. Think about that – the first gospel (Matthew followed Mark chronologically) wasn’t written till 40 years after Jesus supposedly died and that gospel is a carefully crafted, literary masterpiece, not a collection of oral traditions. It was written as myth and then copied and embellished by the authors of Matthew and Luke who revised the portions they didn’t agree with. Not a word of the NT was written while Jesus was alive. How could you not know that? You go ask your priest if Jesus literally wrote any part of the bible and see what he says. I was assuming you knew a little about your religion – apparently I was wrong.
            .
            You said all we have to do is read the bible – tell me, have you read it? Cover to cover? Obviously you have not, if you believe Jesus wrote it. I have done so several times and I’ve studied the NT quite a bit, including reading it in chronological order rather than the order in which the books are presented. The story changes quite a bit when you read it in the correct, or more likely, order. You aren’t qualified to debate the bible with me unless you’ve read it at least once, and if that’s gibberish, then I suggest you take your own words to heart: … “And that my friend is all I need I need to say."

          15. Maggie

            Patrick. You sir need to get a life and stop being a troll. Shame on you. I’ll pray for you.

        2. Gene Tobola Reply

          Patrick, the host WAS tested by the Department of Forensic Medicine as the article states. NO miracle is ever approved without strenuous scientific verification.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Gene, where is this evidence? All the article says is that they discovered this human tissue in a host – it does not say how it got there. It does not say that any DNA testing was done, or that any criminal investigation was performed, or mention a continuous trail of evidence from the point it was mixed into batter, put into the oven and eventually dropped to the floor in 2013, then tested in 2014, and only at that time placed on a “corporal” – a piece of cloth, then reported two years later in 2016; following which, the story drops dead.
            .
            To be confirmed as a miracle, every single step of the way would need to be documented, and the article most certainly does not provide that, or even any indication that it was treated as one would treat a crime scene in order to prevent contamination of the evidence. The article refers to the “Department of Forensic Medicine” but it does not say which one of these departments is referred to, as there are such departments at several universities in Poland. We don’t know if this was a university department or a police department – no source for the testing involved in this “miracle” is provided, nor any real description of the tests and procedures employed. Instead it is worded in a very misleading way, to make it sound like it’s all been tested an investigated, when in fact, nothing at all is provided to confirm that this was actually the case. I tried repeatedly to find some indication on the web of which Dept. of Forensic Medicine did this testing, but could not find anything. This entire article, from whoever originated it, is junk journalism, and not a word of it can be taken as credible, given the lengths it went to avoid providing any real evidence at all.
            .
            Go check – there hasn’t been a single update to this case since it was first reported around April 20, without any documentation, evidence or explanation of the testing that allegedly took place. Do Bishops have the authority to declare a miracle? Why didn’t the Vatican confirm it? Why did the Church allow the story to die? Why are there no updates to this story if it was really a miracle? I suspect that a couple years from now, they will trot the story out again as one that was proven back in 2016, and if they do, that will be a lie.
            .
            To say that “NO miracle is ever approved without scientific verification” is complete and utter nonsense, given that most miracles have been approved before there even was a practice of science, not to mention the tools of science that would be required to prove that the laws of nature were actually violated. I’m really amazed at the participation this article received – as though people are grasping at straws for something, anything, no matter how slim and unlikely, to give them reason to support their beliefs, so they hang to garbage like this article by the slimmest thread of faith – which if we are being honest, is simply pretending to know things you don’t know.

          2. Ann Saunders

            Patrick once again all you have shown is that you have no faith. You think this is proof there is likely no God. You chosecaxside, and chose to indoctrinate yourself to that side. As for you judging God, you assume you know all that He does, saying any God who does this is evil. Well, you will be finding, at the end of your life, that God is the only good, not slightly like the Mafia, and that he’ll, or the waste dump in Jerusalem called Gehenna that was a pit that people and garbage and all manner of foul things were tossed into, cannot be gotten out of,is indeed an allegory, go give an understanding of what it will be like for those who choose to distance themselves from God instead of getting to know their creator. There is evidence in the very air we breathe that tells us this “evolution” of single celled life forms, who evolved into our fragile bodies somehow, came from somewhere other than earth, that evolution is intended for us go sdspt, but we cannot just jump into becoming anything new or original on our own. You say you are objective, but you really don’t sound like it. Try Guadalupe. Look into it, on the new reports from the scientific community. You may be ignorant enough even afterwards to say to some, “who painted it?” Like HRC, to the bishop who walked her through the site. I hope your heart becomes a little less hard in doing so. But that is up to you.

          3. Patrick Gannon

            “Patrick once again all you have shown is that you have no faith. ” Excellent. Thank you! I prefer not to pretend to know things I don’t know.
            .
            “You think this is proof there is likely no God. ” No, I don’t think I ever said that. I think that there is an extremely small possibility that there are gods or afterlives, given that we have no evidence to prove that there aren’t any; but that does not mean that I take my lack of faith as proof that there is no God. There is a lot more than my lack of faith to provide evidence that there is no god.
            .
            You suggest that I indoctrinated myself – but I was born, raised Catholic and I’ve read tons of material on both sides. My search began in earnest when I read the bible cover to cover a couple of times, and I’ve continued to read parts of it ever since. I know far more about Christianity than most Christians. Do you know that there were some gospels that didn’t make it into the bible, including some that suggested that Yahweh was actually Satan, and that Jesus battled him in a celestial realm to save us? Do you know that we don’t have a single scrap of original text for any of the bible? Who cares if it was inspired, if Yahweh-Jesus couldn’t even see to it that the original was saved, so we’d know what it really said before the scribes had their way with the old texts?
            .
            Genesis says in 3:22 that we, like the gods, know what good and evil are. We know that it is evil to send a mere mortal to trillions of years of eternal torment for failing to believe, say and do the right things (as directed by mere men dressed in robes), when we live here but a handful of decades. Hold a bic lighter under your arm till the skin smokes, blisters, hisses, spits, and flames up like a BBQ, then imagine that over your entire body… now imagine that over the body of your child because he or she fell away from their faith. You’re going to worship a being who would do that to your child? How could you ever be happy in heaven, knowing this was happening, and that you were powerless to stop it? Don’t give me crap about evil. I know evil when I see it. We all do. We need to stop lying about worshipping an evil god. Either the Church lied to us and the god is not evil, or the god is evil, or there is no god. Those are our choices.
            .
            As for miracles, please explain how something immaterial and outside space and time, affects the particles in our physical matter reality while evading all efforts of our scientists to confirm that any such affect is taking place. We know that if there were such forces, we’d know it by now.

        3. margaret Reply

          Patrick, you sound angry. You should do your research yourself and then come back and enlighten us all.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            I’m a recovering Catholic. Of course I’m angry. I was psychologically abused by the indoctrination of the Church when I was a child and it took decades to get over it.
            .
            I have done my research on this. I’ve searched everything I can think of to find sources for the organizations said to have tested this and exactly what those reports say. That information is not to be found – almost certainly because it doesn’t exist. What amazes me is that this particular post is the most popular of any post here that doesn’t have something to do with sex. There is a desperation for this to be true – for some sign from the Catholic god that all this stuff about Yahweh and Jesus is true – because deep down, we know it’s not. People are grasping for this thin straw of hope with a vengeance. The miracle of transubstantiation is not enough – Catholics want some real evidence. Unfortunately, this incident fails to provide any.

        4. Cheryl Huber Reply

          Hey Patrick, I figure I’ll toss in a few miracles for you. Have you ever seen the pictures of the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul. The Holy Father saw the Blessed Mother reach out and move the bullet.

          Miracles attributed to Mother Theresa of Calcutta had to be verified, and they happened in your lifetime. Cancer that just disappeared?

          My sister was pronounced dead, and a nun at the Catholic hospital poured holy water from Fatima on her, she woke. True story, but not verified by the Vatican. She was conceived on Easter and born on Christmas Day, coincidence?

          The greatest miracle of all, is the evolution of the universe which is still unfolding.

          Miracles happen every day. We could use many more and I pray you will see one in your lifetime; like Paul being knocked off of his horse and seeing the light.

          No doubt in my mind, God loves you, and is trying to bring you home. That’s why you’re on this site. Hang in there, a miracle is coming your way… if you look for the signs, they are always there, but to those with no faith, there are no signs. God will give you a sign if you look for it.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            No, I have never seen any objective evidence that the Pope saw the Blessed mother reach out and move the bullet. Why didn’t she just prevent it from being fired in the first place?
            .
            Miracles attributed to Mother Teresa have been debunked by Christopher Hitchens and others. She was no saint, in any sense of the word.
            .
            Yes cancers do spontaneously disappear – among the religious of any and all religions, as well as among non-believers. It happens with a certain statistical probability. What NEVER happens as a miracle, is an amputated limb being grown back. Visible miracles like that, never happen. Why not? Is Yahweh limited in what he can do, or does he just hate amputees?
            .
            Your personal story contains far too little information to even begin to be considered as a miracle. Try again. Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) was born as Halley’s comet came in, and died as it passed again. That was a coincidence. (Actually I’m kind of surprised that the Catholic Church with its manic obsession over sex wouldn’t have some kind of problem with your sister being conceived on Easter. Why weren’t your parents at church celebrating the resurrection of Jesus instead of banging away under the bedsheets! Given that Christmas is approximately 40 weeks after Easter, depending on the year, this is hardly coincidental. The probabilities are pretty high. It’s certainly not a miracle. Miracles by definition are rare events, and this would not be a rare event.
            .
            Whether the evolution of the universe is a miracle is yet to be determined. It appears to be a natural process. What evolution does do, however, is put a dagger right in the middle of the Catholic nonsense about “original sin.” We know from DNA evidence that there was never a two-person DNA bottleneck; we evolved from a pool of several thousand early humans, not two people – and without that – no fall from grace, no original sin. Eventually the Vatican will have to admit this, as they eventually had to admit that Galileo and Giordano Bruno, for example, were right, and they were wrong.
            .
            There is no biblical evidence for Paul being knocked off a horse. I’ve read the book. Even Catholic Answers says, “He more than likely did not. It is commonly assumed that Rabbi Saul was thrown from his horse on the road to Damascus. This assumption has been reinforced by several artistic depictions, including Caravaggio’s “Conversion on the Way to Damascus" and “Conversion of St. Paul” (1601). However, nowhere does the New Testament make mention of Saul being thrown from his horse. In fact, it doesn’t even make mention of Saul traveling by horse!”
            .
            Which god loves me? The one who will send me to eternal torment if I fail to believe, say and do what the RCC insists upon? What good god could send any human, who lives but a handful of decades, for any reason to eternal torment? There is no greater evil that can be conceived of. The RCC wants you to worship an evil god.

        5. Ann Saunders Reply

          Patrick,look into the tilma of Juan Diego, Guadalupe ,Mexico. I read an article that has scientists confirming that the “painting” was not done by human hands, and with no substances found on earth as the paint. I don’t have time to refund the article, but you say you are good at searching, so have at it. I admire the tenacity of your searching. I wonder if you do your searches with an open mind, if you have tried praying with the openess to God that you clearly don’t have. You want facts, look into Guadalupe to start. It is where Mary first appeared as an apparition. It is where she gave evidence on an old man’s tilma….the results from this last scientific study might surprise you, or they might tgeaten your faith that there really is no God. Sometimes you have to go further than the one article, and go to the Author to get the answers you want, if indeed you do want them. I tried finding a place to reply to your statements but none was provided. I’d be interested to see how you try to discredit Guadalupe. I don’t think you have the objective to get people to see they believe hoaxes, as you are only trying to sow doubt. For me, God has given me so many gifts of the tangible that I can’t reject them. But maybe you can “enlighten” me?! To me , I see you having doubt as a constant companion, and you at least flirt a lot with outright disbelief. Prove me wrong , please. 🙂

      3. Maria Reply

        For those who believe no explanation is needed while for those who don’t believe nothing is explainable.

      4. Grace Zadlo Reply

        God comes to those who have ears and eyes open

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Those who have their ears and eyes open will be asking for evidence.

          1. Diane Marie Kamer

            Y’all, Patrick is trolling. Pray for him, but do not waste precious time and energy arguing with him. He is impervious to reason.

          2. Patrick Gannon

            LOL. That’s hilarious. Reason calls for evidence. Reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. I have not seen anything here that offers a cause, explanation or justification for this event aside from what I myself have offered. Read the full thread below. The Bishop is pulling a fast one. He sent the first sample to the lab and it came back negative. He sent a second contaminated sample and it contained what he wanted it to contain but the lab that did the testing said it would never hold up in court. The red substance has a natural cause which has been documented in similar cases. There is no evidence that the Vatican recognizes this as a miracle. It is not I who is impervious to reason. Not by a long shot.

          3. Caroline

            Everyone please pray Patrick gets this evidence he so desperately needs. I sense his torture. Faith is a gift from God that can be given and taken away in an instant. Only God knows why He does anything. He is the Alfa and the Omega. Our human way of understanding is incapable of comprehending. “Blessed is he who believes and does not see”. God has not blessed you Patrick with faith for a reason and your ignorance in the power of God does not give you the right to try to take it from us that do not need proof of His miracles or His existence. You said you didn’t ask for help from those that tried to help you, well we BELIEVERS didn’t ask for your opinion of doubt. I reject your words from Satan and yes, I believe that if you reject God you will go straight to HELL, but then again in the end its up to God. I pray He has mercy on you.

          4. se

            Hi Patrick,

            The irony of your stance is that one must already possess some idea of God in order to deny His existence. Otherwise, it seems you are simply bloviating. So, what is your idea of God? Scientific logic demands that one must begin with a premise (or First Cause, which even Einstein admitted to).

          5. Liliana

            If you looking for another miracle that I have personally witnessed, go to Lebanon to a small village called Huntchara. The Eucharistic miracle has been happening for so many years.
            The Vatican would not call a miracle unless it is scientifically proven, therefore if a miracle is happening, Vatican ask priest not to make it publicly while studying the case. In the case of the above mentioned place in Lebanon, priest was moved to different locations, but the miracle continued happening wherever he was sent. People come and witness it from lots of places around the Middle East, even Muslims I have seen over there. Healings had happened and are happening.
            I believe that for anyone interested on such cases and being skeptic about them, they should look by their own eyes where do they happen. It is difficult to convince people of such events: personally, I will advice them to go and see for themselves.
            I believe that talking in a disrespectful way of something so holy it is bad. Because unless you have witnessed it you can feel the real presence in such places. But to talk about in a disrespectful way about something you have never witnessed it is certainly not good, specially when we talk about God, Jesus Christ, etc.

          6. Patrick Gannon

            Would it be “disrespectful” for the Bishop to have declared a “miracle” when there was no such evidence and the effects described are already scientifically understood? The Vatican never chimed in on this “miracle.” They are having difficulty with miracles now that they have allowed science into the process, because there are no such things as miracles. Immaterial substances cannot affect the material particles in our natural world. We know this beyond any reasonable doubt at this point. Take some science classes…

          7. Liliana

            Dear Patrick, I am a doctor. No need to give here scientific explanations. But as a doctor I can tell you that the power of God goes far away more than any science.
            I have been a witness of a family miracle, a healing. And some other stories.
            I am a witness and a doctor and a true believer in the existence of God even in our time.
            Thank you.

          8. Patrick Gannon

            Thank you Liliana, but being a doctor, does not mean you are scientific. Many doctors endure enough science to get their degree, and that’s about it. We had Ben Carson, who was, by all accounts, an amazing doctor, but he has no use whatsoever for any science that does not support his religious views. Expanding on scientific concepts you may understand might still be useful for others. In my experience, most people are woefully illiterate when it comes to science.
            .
            As a doctor, surely you know about spontaneous remissions. Sometimes it just happens. Because we don’t always understand why something happens, does not mean “God did it.” That’s a cop out. That’s a cowardly response that prevents us from searching deeply to find out the real reason behind it. If we accepted, “because God did it” the sun would still be going around the earth, and the Church would still be burning people at the stake – like Bruno Giordano for whose death they have never apologized.
            .
            I’m willing to believe in magical soul, consciousness, god forces – but they don’t do anything in our natural world or we would know it by now. If they exist, they are moot. With the confirmation of the Higgs field in 2012, the Standard Model or core theory of physics left us quite confident that if such forces exist, they play no role in our world – or we would know it. Tell me how a soul force can break the strong nuclear force that binds atoms together – as it would need to do in order for tissue to heal – without us being aware of it; given that we are aware of much weaker forces. Quantum field theory tells us we can know these forces don’t exist – or don’t have any impact here, if they do – with an exceptionally high degree of confidence. While we might not be able to observe these magical forces, if they existed, we would observe what they do to the particles in your patients in order to generate new tissue, or whatever the case may be. We have all sorts of evidence for this – in some regard, every single physics experiment that has ever been run. Your god has what, exactly in the way of compelling, objective evidence?
            .
            Note that one thing your god absolutely cannot do is to heal an amputee, can he? Either he’s not all-powerful or the OT laws are still in effect and disabled people are to be shunned, confirming that your God must hate amputees! How else do you explain this? As a doctor, how many amputees have you seen grow back a limb?
            .
            If I am to believe in your god, then I have to believe and accept that your god arbitrarily chose to execute a miracle for a small, random sampling of people, while meanwhile thousands of children are dying of disease and starvation because the Catholic Church insisted that the mothers have children they couldn’t take care of under penalty of eternal torment if they used contraception. Also these “miracles” occur to all sorts of patients in all sorts of countries who worship all sorts of gods in all sorts of religions, which seems to indicate that your god doesn’t really care what god you worship. He’s an equal-opportunity spontaneous remission god.
            .
            Why did your god take so much time out of his busy day to heal your patient, one patient, while so many small children died that day and every day, one after the other….. What makes the healed patients any better than those who don’t get miracles? There don’t seem to be any outstanding characteristics. If your god healed your patients, who made them ill in the first place? If he’s intruding to heal, how are we to know he didn’t make them sick in the first place? If he can manipulate the particles in our natural world in order to heal, then he can certainly do so to make us sick, and thus we must assume any time we get sick or any time something bad happens, that your god intended it and made it happen – and that makes him a pretty distasteful character, doesn’t it? After all the bible paints the picture of a god who pulls puppet strings – hardening the heart of Pharaoh and causing people to do various things against their will. That doesn’t play well with the concept of free will, does it?
            .
            If you are a doctor, then you know that there are microorganisms that cause this red stuff in hosts that fall on the ground, and that this phenomenon has been seen a number of times before and been confirmed as such. Elsewhere in this thread, I provided sources. Why then are you supporting a trumped up miracle that is clearly a fraud?

          9. Liliana

            Too much to discuss, Patrick.
            I just hope that one day your heart will open to God and find the answers you are looking for.

          10. Patrick Gannon

            So pick one topic… The questions I have are not for your god, but for those of you who believe in him. No matter how open my heart is, do you think Yahweh-Jesus is going to explain to me how an immaterial force can act on the material particles in our natural world?

          11. Liliana

            I have no time to continue discussing the same topic. Good luck in your search.

          12. Patrick Gannon

            se, I possess an idea of a unicorn, so I can deny its existence. So what? The “idea of God” that you refer to is very well demonstrated and illustrated in the bible. That is supposed to be his Holy Book, right? It does tell us about the existence of this god, right? Therefore my “idea of God” must, like your own, come out of that book. Have you read that entire book?
            .
            Or is the book wrong? Is the book immaterial to the character and description of your god? Should we discard all those books as not providing the “idea of God” that you refer to? What other “idea of God” should I have in mind? The Islamic “idea of God?” The Hindu “idea of God(s)?” Just what other “idea of God” am I supposed to have?
            .
            If we insist that everything must have a first cause – what was the cause of your god? I heard a prominent scientist recently predict that within 50 years, we’ll have a good theory with supporting evidence to explain how the universe as we know it, started… the universe itself may have always existed and then underwent a phase transition like water to ice. While I won’t be around that long, I think we should wait, and stop assigning things to gods, things that we don’t yet understand.
            .
            The problem, to mention it again, is that the book provides the “idea of God” through five pillars, and each has been debunked. We know there was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck (Adam and Eve), no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan. These things are the the places in the “Holy Book” from which the “idea of God” is derived – and they have washed away; so what remains of your “idea of God” without these pillars?

      5. Fred Reply

        Hey I am a protestant Christian and I’m going to agree with Patrick on this. I won’t say miracles don’t happen, even though I’ve never seen one that could be comparable to those in the Bible but I think Catholics should stop looking for bloody eucharists and weeping statues and think about what Christ himself said. “A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign”

      6. MaryAgnes Doumin Reply

        Patrick, Not only totally disgusting and disrespectful! No faith no eternal life! Enjoy your life on Earth in this corrupt world of Satan!

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          MaryAgnes, as usual the Christian threat of eternal torment… It does get old. It’s like every Christian thinks I’m learning about Hell and eternal torment for not believing what they do, for the very first time! So many of you are so scared. You were raised and indoctrinated to be afraid of an evil god. And they told you he was good. I know. I was there. OK, so which of the four Hell’s am I going to? You do know there are four, right? You do know that the Church translated four different words to the pagan word “Hell.” You don’t believe me – look it up. Ask your priest what four words were translated to the pagan word Hell and ask him what each of those words originally meant, and then fact-check him and look it up yourself. Then come back and tell me which of the four Hell’s I am going to. (I know the answer, but want to see if you can figure it out). Then read the bible and tell me how many innocent people Yahweh kills and how many Satan kills. Get back to me on that one too. Did you know that there are early Christian texts that did not make it into the official canon, (and were largely destroyed by the proto-orthodox who won the literary battles), that define Yahweh as an evil god that a celestial Jesus was to save us from? Fortunately a few of these texts have been uncovered at Nag Hammadi and the Dead Sea Scrolls, and various libraries… The story previously unknown sects of Judaism as well as those of early Christianity is a very interesting one, and not one that the Church tells its sheeple. What do you know about Marcionites, or Ebionites, or Theodocians or Gnostics – all of them were early Christians. If one of them had won, instead of the proto-orthodox, you might worship two gods, no gods, many gods, etc. When Rome empowered the proto-orthodox, the battle was over and history decided; but it could have gone another way.
          .
          First consider that this host thing was not a miracle. If you search throughout this thread, you’ll find that I posted an article offering a scientific explanation for this so-called “miracle.” The first sample (real sample) was sent to a lab who found nothing unusual about it. The second sample was not a real sample, it was a paraffin (wax) block handled by many people that included traces of the original sample along with a lot of contamination from handling. The researchers said the results would be of little value in a court case. The local Bishop called it a miracle anyway, knowing it would bring the foolish ignorant sheep and their money. The source of the red mark is a known and understood bacteria; and this “miracle” has happened before as a result of perfectly normal natural causes.
          .
          What is disgusting and disrespectful is the way the clergy who perpetrated this fraud treated believers, playing you for fools, and knowing that many would flock in to see the miracle and leave their money along the way. What’s disgusting and disrespectful is that this all seems to be a lie. No evidence has been formally presented. The Vatican has made no official statement that this is a miracle based on the research of many who have tried to confirm the articles that have said this. What’s disrespectful and disgusting, is to hand over your will and your trust, to an organization that lies to you, and insists that you should worship an evil god.
          .
          Why is he evil? Because sending a mere human who lives here but a handful of decades to trillions of years of eternal torment is a disproportionate justice that surpasses all lesser definitions of evil. Yahweh gives the idea of “cruel and unusual punishment” an entirely new meaning. We’re far more civilized than h. We know what evil is (see Gen 3:22). The gods knew from that point on, that we would be able to see that some of them (notably Yahweh) are evil; and his book details much of his evil. Yahweh condones or commands slavery, racism, sexism, genocide, homophobia, discrimination against the disabled, murder of innocents, it goes on and on. Then we learn that Jesus is God = Yahweh is God = Jesus is Yahweh, which means Jesus did all this, then he came for a visit in his Jesus persona and hypocritically preached about love, peace and justice. Why hypocritically? Because he decided instead of destroying us if we didn’t live up to his expectations, as was his plan in his Yahweh persona, instead he would send us to eternal torment, thereby doubling down on his previous acts of evil, which are pathetic by comparison with the concept of eternal torment – particularly when you send those complete innocents who commit the heinous crime of failing to be baptized before dying (abortions, miscarriages, stillborns) to Hell, which is the default place for them in the catechism. You’re allowed to hope Yahweh isn’t a monster, but it’s just hope. By default, Yahweh/Jesus, the Catholic god sends them to Hell. And you want me to worship this god?
          .
          Now this all sounds pretty unusual to you, I’m guessing. But if you tear apart the RCC’s teaching, this is what is going on. Their god is an evil god, the most evil being ever invented, but they tell you he’s good, that he and the RCC command you to love and worship him, or else. Who among us has to command our children to love us? Who among us would impregnate a woman or allow ourselves to become pregnant if we knew that when the baby was born it would grow up and be thrown into a fire that would in unimaginable agony, consume the skin while replenishing from below (that’s what they told me), for trillions and trillions of eternal years. Hold a lighter under your arm till the skin smokes and spits and sizzles, then imagine that over the entire body of your child, and tell me if you would allow that child to be born if you knew that would happen to it. If so, you’re as evil as Yahweh. If being told that this evil god is good, is not guaranteed to mess up generation after generation of otherwise sane people, I don’t know what else could.

      7. Thomaspj Poovathinkal SSP Reply

        TRY and visit any of the BRANCHES of THE DIVINE Retreat Centre in different parts of the World and see whether you remain the same. A healthy curiosity is a MUST.

        SOME ADDRESSES of the Branches of THE DIVINE Retreat Centre :

        (****** FOR Telephone Nos. and the E-mail addresses Please go to GOOGLE and search.)

        DivinePrayer Centre, 426, Route 57 West, Washington, NJ 07882, USA. 30 Alvin SlovanAve., Washington Township, NJ 07882-4173, USA.

        DivineRetreat Centre, St. Augustine Abbey, St. Augustine’s Road, Ramsgate, CT119PA,Kent, UK.

        DivineRetreat Centre, P.O. Box 6327, West Gosford 2250, NSW, Australia.

        VincentianHouse, Divine Mercy Prayer House, 2905 S Frontage Road, Plant City, FL 33566,USA.

        DivineRetreat Centre, Vincentian Prayer Centre, 69 William Street, Toronto, ON, M9N2G6, Canada.

        ExerzitienzentrumDer Gottlichen Barmherzigkeit, St. Clemens Kirche, Stresemann Str. 66 a, 10963,Berlin, Germany.

        Director, Prayer Centre, Vincentian Fathers, Centenary Vincentian House, P.O. Box No. 200, Entebbe, Uganda, East Africa.

        Director, Vincentian Prayer House, Buoye, Kisumu, Kenya, East Africa

        Director, Vincentian Fathers, Divine Mercy Renewal Centre, Kabulassoke, P.B.No. 613, Masaka, Uganda, East Africa.

        ( NOTE :St. Luke : 7, 29 and the following: “All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. BUT THE PHARISEES AND THE EXPERTS in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.” – MANY CHRISTIAN GROUPS AND CHURCHES move in this above-said spirit, and so the WORLD remains UNEVANGELISED.)

        Vincentian Fathers, P.O. Box 25158, 00603, Lavington, Nairobi, Kenya, East Africa.

        Vincentian Prayer House, Vincentian Fathers, P.O. Box 25158, 00603, Lavington, Nairobi, Kenya, East Africa.

        Director, Vincentian Retreat Centre, Nzangi, P.B. No. 23, Kyengera, Kampala, Uganda, East Africa

        Vincentian Retreat Centre (VRC) Vincentian Fathers, P.O. Box No.2009-01000, Thika, Nairobi Thika Highway, Kenya, East Africa.

      8. Thomaspj Poovathinkal SSP Reply

        Try at least a healthy CURIOSITY VISIT to any of these Retreat Centres, Please. You may SEE JESUS THE LORD ALIVE :

        SOME ADDRESSES of the Branches of THE DIVINE Retreat Centre :
        (FOR Telephone Nos. and the E-mail addresses Please go to GOOGLE and search.)

        DivinePrayer Centre, 426, Route 57 West, Washington, NJ 07882, USA. 30 Alvin SlovanAve., Washington Township, NJ 07882-4173, USA.

        DivineRetreat Centre, St. Augustine Abbey, St. Augustine’s Road, Ramsgate, CT119PA,Kent, UK.

        DivineRetreat Centre, P.O. Box 6327, West Gosford 2250, NSW, Australia.