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Yes, God can forgive a soul in Hell when they ask for pardon. But..

Question: Can God forgive a soul in Hell when they ask for pardon?

Answer: Emm, Yes

However there is a “But". Let’s get something straight first, NO SOUL IN HELL CAN BE SAVED. This does not mean that God cannot forgive a soul in hell when they ask for pardon, it means however that the soul CAN NO LONGER ASK for pardon from God from a sincere heart. Souls in hell cannot love, cannot be sorry, cannot be moved to anything good and sincere, therefore, they cannot be moved to speak to God in a loving manner.

When this soul was on earth it didn’t want communion with God, it resisted the graces of God; it wanted to be “left alone". Hell means a state of “being left alone" for all eternity.

God respects everyone’s free choice to be left alone. He can NEVER COERCE; he can never force anyone to commune with him in Heaven when they don’t want it. “Wanting it" means obeying God’s commands till the end, using the Sacraments worthily, paying an ear of obedience to the Church. Sin means refusing God either temporarily or permanently when we sin and refuse to abandon those sins and return to Him.

“We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. .. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.””

– CCC 1033

God NEVER changes, He is ALWAYS merciful. However, the souls in hell are selfish and against God. They HATE His Light, His Name, His Face and everything about Him to them breeds hatred and disgust. That’s “Hell"; they are forever cut off from the most Beautiful, Powerful, Loving, Peaceful Father and Lover. A soul in hell does not have the light of grace to feel contrition. In fact so many Church Fathers believe that the souls in hell curse and rant against God for all eternity.

Is this surprising? A soul who rebelled against God in life cannot be his friend in death. This soul has so disposed himself to selfishness and self-love that he is absolutely unable to love God or any other except himself. In fact, at death, he is also unable to love himself since true self-love ultimately comes from God. One can say that a soul who loved himself in life necessarily does anything to ensure his happiness for all eternity.



  1. Gabriel lujan Reply

    Debbie downer

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      This is a horrible article. Throwing billions of people into Hell for not believing the right thing, is hardly an act of mercy. Look at the picture. Hell is all about fear. Fear keeps money in the coffers, and kids in catechism classes where the cycle perpetuates. Which Hell, specifically do we go to? There are four words that were translated to “Hell” in the English bible. Let’s look at them:

      Sheol was the resting place for the dead in the Old Testament. It was not a place of punishment. If Bible God wanted to punish you, He punished you in this life, or if He was really torked, He punished your offspring “to the third and fourth generation.” Sheol means “grave,” “dead” or permanently unconscious, depending on the context. Again, it is not a place of punishment. We don’t get eternal punishment until the “good news” of Jesus. Prior to Jesus’ arrival (or actually Paul’s) once you were dead, Bible God was done with you. At the time of Jesus, the biggest topic of discussion was whether there would be some sort of final judgment in which all the people in Sheol would be awakened so they could be judged and then disposed of or rewarded. Note that they would have been judged on their actions – not on their beliefs as we are judged today.

      Gehenna, was the word Jesus used 11 times, if I recall correctly. Gehenna was the Jerusalem town dump. The “gnashing of teeth” was the wild animals eating sacrificial remains and the ‘twisting worm’ was the continuous smoke drifting through the valley. To be thrown in the dump rather than being afforded a proper burial was the worst possible insult for a Jew of that time. Jesus was obviously and clearly speaking metaphorically, and the Jews of the time understood that. In any event the dump has been closed for a long time.

      Just as the Jews understood Sheol and Gehenna, going west, the Gentiles understood Hades. This is pure paganism right in the middle of the NT. Hades after all was the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. Again, the gentiles understood this to be a metaphorical concept, and it was not necessarily punitive. Hades had various levels and the bottom level is…

      Tartarus, which is the place where Satan and his demons will be thrown at the end of times. It’s not a place for people, as I understood the scriptures.

      So what is the origin of the word “Hell?” Well, it’s “Hel” the pagan Norse underworld, which would have been understood metaphorically by northern Europeans when the bible was translated into English. Hell is purely metaphorical and based on paganism. And we’re scared to death of this imaginary thing. Why? How did Hell become the picture that accompanies this horrible article? Well for that we turn primarily to Dante’s Inferno and Milton’s Paradise Lost. The RCC loved those horrifying visions and adopted them in order to ratchet up the fear ever higher.

      Look this stuff up. Don’t take my word for it.

      1. Billy Zacc Reply

        Patrick, I think this is the second time I am commenting on your posts. You need to stop misleading people because you will be held morally culpable by God. If you ignorantly don’t believe keep it at that and pray for conversion or clarity. Don’t try and drag others down with you.
        “PEOPLE, DO NOT LISTEN TO ANYTHING PATRICK GANNON WRITES”. ONLY LISTEN TO THE WORD OF GOD AND HIS CHURCH HERE ON EARTH. God bless you Patrick and I will pray for your conversion to Christ

      2. David Reply

        Patrick This is not exactly a right place to sow doubt and expose your very particular interpretation of the bible. This due to the risk of separating souls from the right way. Keep it and ask for advise in a private manner so you don’t make harm conscious or unconsciously confusing others. It is outrageous to hear you judge what is fair or not and what makes God a monster. May be you don’t realize that YOU are a monster.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          David and Billy Zacc, this is a public forum, isn’t it? Are you telling me that your faith is not strong enough to stand up to question? It’s not strong enough to stand up to accurate information, like the translation of the words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus to a pagan place called Hell, and the translation of the word aionion to “eternal.” These things are facts, whether you like them or not. I understand that when it comes to religion, ignorance is blessed, but when it comes to being human beings – we should use the good brains we were given, and not destroy or set aside our “talents” as in the parable told by Jesus. You may stand up for ignorance, but in time the truth will come out. The Church may not have ever admitted that the world is round, but it did stop being flat, and the sun did stop going around the earth. Evolution is the next big problem for the Church, and they’ve made the mistake of admitting that it’s real, because the evidence shows that there was no Adam and Eve, and thus there was no original sin, and without that, the purpose of the Church is greatly diminished, unless it can find a way to move from fear, guilt and shame to love and following the teachings of Jesus.

          Now debate the points I raised if you can…

          1. Pauline Savino

            I’ve read what you have posted here and am slightly confused to the point you are trying to argue.

          2. Patrick Gannon

            I’m arguing here, and on other threads that the RCC invented Hell as we understand it today, by mistranslating four different words, into one word, “Hell” which has pagan origins. I’m arguing that Hell as depicted by the Church is not biblical. I don’t know if there are any gods or afterlives, and I don’t know if there is any Hell; but I do know that the Hell I was taught as a Catholic child is not supported by the bible. Further, this Hell is not eternal, because the word “aionion” which was translated to “eternal,” really means “of an age.” Ages have beginnings and ends. I’m making the charge that the RCC intentionally manipulated people through the use of fear, by inventing the thing we think of as Hell today. There’s more to it than this, but learning about the translation issue is something most Christians are totally unaware of; just as most are still unaware that there isn’t a shred of evidence for The Exodus or the conquest of Canaan.

            The point I’m arguing is that the premise of the article is flawed, Pauline. There is no Hell, and certainly nothing as depicted in the lovely image that accompanies the article. That image is what the RCC wants you to think Hell is, but after you go back to the original words, you see that the image and the fear it intends to convey is a lie. Look them up: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, and then let’s talk about them.

  2. Aaron Reply

    Where does it say in scriptures that the place where where satan and his demons will be thrown at the end of times is not a place for people??? You may have not read this yet, “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Aaron, as best I know, the word Tartarus occurs only once in the NT in 2 Peter 2:4, and it seems to be referring to fallen angels. The place referred to in your Matthew passage, I assume to be Gehenna, although Matthew refers to both Hades and Gehenna in various places. Jesus always speaks of Gehenna, the Jerusalem town dump, and unless one is trying hard to turn Jesus into a monster, it’s pretty clear he’s speaking allegorically. Matthew and others, when invoking the pagan Hades, seem to similarly be making allegorical comparisons. The word “eternal” as used in the NT when referring to Hell, really means “an age” and does not mean “eternity” as we think of it today.

      The 25th chapter of Matthew begins with a couple parables – i.e. allegorical stories. I think it’s fair to assume that the last portion you refer to is also allegorical. After all, he is speaking allegorically. People are not goats and sheep. To take such stories literally is to decide that Jesus was some kind of monster who sent people to eternal torment for “sins” committed in their blink of time here. To be punished for trillions of years for sins committed in a short 70 year life is the very epitome of injustice. The whole idea of “an eye for an eye” in the OT is proportional justice, and nobody can argue that eternal torment is proportional justice for anything. Even Hitler would deserve to be released from the fires after suitable punishment – but to torment for eternity – that’s cruel, vicious wickedness, and means God and Jesus most definitely are not “good.”

      It makes much more sense to take these passages about hell allegorically as it seems they were intended by the authors.

      1. aaronda007 Reply

        Patrick, you seem to a make a lot of assumptions in your interpretations of the bible. I wonder by whose teachings do you make your assumptions? How can you be certain which parts of the bible are allegorical based on your assumptions? Are you saying that the bible can only be interpreted by your assumptions and other explanations are false? When you say that the word “eternal” when referring to hell really means “an age” and not “eternity”, is there a passage in the bible that says “eternal” has an end at some point in time? Does this mean that the fallen angels in hell will one day go to heaven?
        We believe that God is eternal, does this mean that He will stop being God at some point in time? If you cannot accept that there is an eternal hell then that is entirely your opinion.

  3. Dick. G. Reply


  4. Rita Reply

    Mortal sin or venial sin? I believe those that “hate” in any way are saying they hate God. God is all loving all caring. He is sad and hurt when we show hatred instead of love the way He loves us. How many people in this world can live with someone who does nothing but show hatred toward us? No matter how we try and handle the situation, no matter how many times they say I’m sorry, they continue doing the same things to hurt us, to show their hatred toward us. Do YOU, PATRICK, really want to live an eternity with this person? I am pretty sure if you say yes you are fooling nobody but yourself. How can you expect God to live with people who never really have remorse for their hatred toward Him? Is it not fair that He gives to people what they are truly asking for? If someone hates you are they not wanting to be away from you? Or they just want to day by day torture you with their hatred because they get their “kicks” from doing that. Maybe you think you can live an eternity like that, but I for one cannot. How can you expect God to be any different? That is why they call this a “MORTAL” sin. It will kill you in death as well as in life. Any venial sin is connected to true remorse, meaning you try, sometimes your whole life to stop doing such things, until, with the help of God, you succeed. If on your deathbed you are truly sorry, (that does not include a, hey if I SAY I am sorry then I will go to heaven) but your heart and soul are aching from the wrongs that you have done, one of your last wishes was that you wish you had never done such wrongs, that if you lived, you would never (with the help of God) do such things again, I truly believe you are forgiven. And yes, this would include the hatred that you spread throughout your life. But the key is FEELING the sorrow, heart, mind, body and soul, not just a “God I am sorry, if you take me to heaven I will stop, I PROMISE. It is my opinion, and my OPINION only that He does not send people to hell for torture and revenge but from the sorrow they have caused Him throughout their lives. I don’t think He can bare to be with them and feel that sorrow with each passing minute. That is why (again just my opinion) they say true hell is the absence of God from you for all eternity. He wanted you, you said “NO” so you got what you wanted. I pray, Patrick that you and every soul who believes that if God sends you to hell He is “unfair” toward you, can someday feel in your heart yes feel to the very core of your soul, how truly hard it is to have the FREE WILL that was given you by God. Love Him or hate Him, live with Him or live without Him; it is your choice and your choice only. May the peace of Jesus Christ reign in your heart.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      “Do YOU, PATRICK, really want to live an eternity with this person?” No, perhaps not, but I would never be so vicious as to sentence them to eternal torment. If there is a heaven (and we’re not zombies there without our free will), then I would expect the place to be large enough that we wouldn’t bump into each other very often. The funny thing is, it’s only religious people who hate me.
      “How can you expect God to live with people who never really have remorse for their hatred toward Him?” Well, first you have to prove that this God exists. How can I hate something I don’t have any evidence even exists. I don’t hate unicorns or fairies, so how can I hate your god? Questioning existence does not equal hate.
      “That is why they call this a “MORTAL" sin. It will kill you in death as well as in life.” Well you know if there really is a God and if He really doesn’t like certain things we do, then killing us – destroying us – is perfectly fine with me. Keeping someone alive for eternity so that you can torture them – that’s about as vicious as it gets. When we watch movies and the torturer tells his victim they are going to keep them alive and torture them till they wish they were dead, we don’t sing their praises. We see them rightfully as psychotic people who need to be removed from society.
      “It is my opinion, and my OPINION only that He does not send people to hell for torture and revenge but from the sorrow they have caused Him throughout their lives.” That’s the old, “this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you argument.” That’s unacceptable for a supreme being that is supposed to be all-powerful (how can an all-powerful being be hurt?), and all-good, (who could torture someone for eternity as a response to the sorrow they were caused, and again, how can an all-powerful being experience sorrow – not get what He wants? This is like the abusive husband who beats his wife because he’s “sorry” that she said the wrong thing to him, or otherwise caused him sorrow. You’ve made me sad, so I’m going to torture you forever. What a chump your god is.
      ” I don’t think He can bare (sic) to be with them and feel that sorrow with each passing minute.” An all-powerful being, just can’t bear up to the sorrow that comes from a human who doubted His existence because He failed to provide any evidence for it. Do you realize how weak you are making your god?
      I don’t have any evidence for or against the existence of gods or afterlives; but I know the difference between right and wrong. The bible itself, in Gen 3:22 says that we, like the gods, know what is good and what is evil, and I know that sending anyone, for any reason, to eternal torment is evil, and I could not worship such a being or fully respect anyone else who does. I would rather be separate and morally superior than to worship evil.

  5. Phill Bikes Reply

    @Gannon, if you are in denial of the existence of hell, good for you. Live your life at your own peril, but don’t proselytize others to join you.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Phill, I’m not proselytizing. I’m providing information. Look up the words yourself that were translated to the word Hell which has north European pagan origins: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus. Also look up aionion, which was translated as “eternal.” Don’t take my word for it – all I’m trying to do is get people to learn for themselves how the RCC has misled them.

  6. keira Reply

    partick is creating his own bible. he adds false opinions and takes words away what is written in the Holy Word of God.
    Rev. 22. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City,and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      If you read my words, you’ll see that I encourage people to look up these words for themselves. Don’t take my word for it. Check out the original meanings of these words in Hebrew and Greek. Gehenna was the Jerusalem town dump. There is no question about this. Jesus was speaking allegorically. To suggest otherwise is to turn Jesus into a monster. I’m not writing my own bible – you need to read the bible and look up the original words: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus – all these words were translated to a German word that had to do with north European paganism, in particular the pagan underworld. Hades is the brother of Zeus and Poseidon – Hell is a pagan concept. When Jesus spoke, everyone assumed they were going to Sheol, a place where you were just dead. There was no place of eternal torment until after Jesus came (that’s the good news?) and the early Catholics turned him into a monster by insisting that Gehenna was a literal place of eternal punishment. Look up the word “aionion” which was interpreted to mean “eternal” a word that didn’t even exist in those days. I’m not writing a new bible; I’m trying to get people to see how the RCC has scared them and used fear to manipulate and control them, in large part, by mis-translating these words.
      Look at the picture that accompanies this article. That’s the fear the RCC wants to inject into you so that you will obey what they tell you to do. The Catechism speaks mostly of “separation” as do Popes when speaking of Hell; but what kind of illustrations do they use when the preach to the sheeple? What kind of images do they try to ingrain into your brain? When I was a child they told me that my skin would burn off from the outside and be constantly refreshed from below. That is psychological child abuse and the perpetrators should have been jailed and allowed no contact with children. They speak of “separation,” but what they want to do is manipulate that fear of unending pain that we all have. Take a cigarette lighter and but your arm in the flame. Leave it there until your skin smokes and spits and burns, and then imagine an “all-good” God doing this to someone over their entire body, for billions of years, simply because they didn’t believe the right thing. Imagine that this is one of your children, and then talk to me about a loving God.

  7. Rita Reply

    Patrick, you certainly have a right to your own opinion since God gave you a free will. But my “FAITH” in God will still allow me to pray that someday, somehow, you will come to know God. You seem to think it is alright to be an evil person who does not have to suffer any consequences for their actions. Hopefully you do not have anyone in your life that you love more than life itself, because if anything ever happened to them you may be the vengeful one. The only difference is, this life is short and the afterlife is eternal. I would be fairly sure you would want to exact your revenge over and over in this life if you possibly could. And should your reply be you would not be so vengeful, then by all means take them into your home and live with them for the rest of your life. Maybe they can do something to someone else you love as well, or maybe just do something to you to thank you for your forgiveness and mercy.


    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      “You seem to think it is alright to be an evil person who does not have to suffer any consequences for their actions.” It depends on what those consequences are and what you define as evil. The Catholic Church says its god sends people to Hell simply for not being baptized. If that’s true, then it’s the Catholic god who is evil. We live in a society that has consequences for “evil” actions. That’s good enough for me. I don’t need to see people who don’t believe what I believe suffer eternity in torment. I’m not that evil.
      “Hopefully you do not have anyone in your life that you love more than life itself, because if anything ever happened to them you may be the vengeful one.” So what you’re saying is that Bible God is vengeful, and indeed the OT god Yahweh is a jealous, wrathful, vengeful god. Funny but these are all things that we teach our kids are bad or undesirable traits. In any event, these situations are not alike. I am not a god. I can be hurt. I can therefore express my anger at my tormentor, but I would hope that I would be a decent human being and learn to forgive my transgressor. (Wasn’t there a NT character who proposed something like this? Some guy named Jesus?). God on the other hand, if He is all-powerful, can’t be hurt. He has no need to be vengeful, other than to act like a petulant child or a schoolyard bully.
      “The only difference is, this life is short and the afterlife is eternal.” Indeed this is a big difference. In His first book of the bible, the OT, He is very clear about the concept of proportionate justice – an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. One should not exact upon a transgressor a greater punishment than the crime. The OT is very clear about this. However Bible God’s justice is not in the least bit proportionate. We live here less than a 100 years, most of us, yet we are to be punished for billions and trillions of endless years, and you think that’s fair, just and merciful? If it were true, it would be the greatest evil ever imagined. It’s like stealing a candy bar and being sent to the electric chair, in fact it’s incredibly worse than that.
      ” I would be fairly sure you would want to exact your revenge over and over in this life if you possibly could.” Well you don’t know me very well. I guess once one throws off the hostility of Christianity, one loses much of that antagonism to fellow human beings. I would never torture someone who hurt me or a loved one. I might kill them, based on the circumstances, but that would be it – over and done with. There is a difference between forgetting and forgiving, so no, I would not take them into my house. No matter what anyone did to me or a loved one, I would never impose on them, or anyone, including Hitler, Stalin or even the clergy (grin), the “Hell” that is depicted at the top of this article, that the RCC loves so much. They just love those horrific visions of Hell because they keep you in fear. They teach that lie to children and one day when we are civilized, we will put people in jail for that kind of psychological child abuse.
      How do we resolve a Jesus who preached that we should forgive our trespassers, love our enemies, and turn the other cheek, with a God who not only does not turn the other cheek but dumps an eternity of suffering and torment on mere human beings, while His son preaches love, mercy and forgiveness? Is God/Jesus schizophrenic?
      And what of the soul of the aborted or miscarried fetus, or the infant that dies before baptism that Catholic God apparently sends to Hell? Where’s the proportionate justice in that? Why the need for vengeance on an innocent being whose only sin was to die before being baptized?
      The good news is that it’s all baloney. Look up the words yourself. The Catholic Church invented Hell as we understand it today by mis-translating four words and mis-translating the Greek word aionion, which means ‘of an age’ and not “eternal.” Eternity was a concept that, as I understand it, they didn’t even have in those pre-scientific days. Stop trying to tell me that I’m going to Hell and convince me that there really is one, using the original words before the Catholics translated them:
      “The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning “one who covers up or hides something”[2] The word has cognates in Latin (see verb cēlō, “to hide”) and in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisian helle, hille, Old Saxon hellja, Middle Dutch helle (modern Dutch hel), Old High German helle (Modern German Hölle), Danish, Norwegian and Swedish helvede/helvete (hel + Old Norse vitti, “punishment” whence the Icelandic víti “hell”), and Gothic halja.[2] Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary.” Wikipedia

  8. Peter Mc Grath Reply

    Patrick, I thank you for your insight and for the understanding of the words that were given for the place which we call hell. Yet, your claim that God could forgive those souls that have been sent to hell for their transgressions. From the philosophical standpoint, yes He could forgive them because everything is possible for God. To say that He could not would limit God somehow.

    In fact, forgiveness must happen from the person first and while here on earth. It is not the question could God forgive it is will he forgive. However, in the scripture he has told us that he will separate the sheep from the goats and for the righteous will, be on my right and for the Goats will be sent to the place that is prepared for the Devil and his angels. So if we take this as the word of God then there is a place that is Called Hell and souls are sent there if they are not sorry for their sins or that they are in grave sin. It is not that he could forgive them it is more if He wills to forgive them. We cannot answer that question because we do not know the mind of God. However, from the scriptures we are lead to believe that there is a Hell and this place is not redeemable and in the parable of the rich man who wanted Abraham to quiche his thirst, what was said there would also make it clear. Once in Hell your are there to stay. I would think.

  9. advera Reply

    Patrick you have free will to go to hell or to heaven.

  10. ma.gina bahala Reply

    People who still like to do immoral things and sins ,who dont like to change their evil ways, they are the one who dont accept that there is hell.

  11. terrell chavez Reply

    Well my dear friends there you have witnessed Scripture in (real time.) GOD Himself tells us in Genesis 3:1 that the serpent is the most cunning of all the creatures HE created. How is it that HE called it cunning? satan is not an idiot, but is an idiot and will use all intelligence the world offers to drag with him into hell anyone who will side with him. The devil knows Scripture, and will twist and conform it for his benefit, and your destruction. satan hates anything GOD LOVES so don’t (get it twisted.) Saint Thomas Aquinas said it best for a man with No faith NO explanation is possible, and for a man with Faith NO explanation is Necessary. May Almighty GOD Bless and keep you HIS LOVE too you.

  12. Dan Reply

    This Gannon guy loves circular arguments. He chooses what to ignore from all the very well thought responders from this forum. Please, stop addressing to him, he wont change, he doesn’t want to believe in nothing but his own confusing arguments. Leave him alone because silence is what his head needs. Nothings else. Better spend a minute praying for him than being part of his keyboard games.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      This Dan guy makes an accusation without providing any example or evidence to support his claim. If my arguments are confusing Dan, please tell me which ones, and I’ll try to clarify them for you. If it makes you feel better, pray away, but why would your god listen to your prayers for me, when He ignores the prayers of the children who will die of starvation and disease before I finish this post, and the ones who will die in the minutes after that, and the minutes after that…
      Peter McGrath, you said above: “Yet, your (sic) claim that God could forgive those souls that have been sent to hell for their transgressions.” I don’t recall saying that. I question the existence of NT Hell, which was clearly allegorical, though Sheol was considered to be real in the OT. You mentioned Abraham – and he was in Sheol, just like everyone else; good and bad alike. Before Jesus came, those in Sheol would remain unconscious (which is why the story is allegorical), until Judgement Day, and then they would be judged and either rewarded or destroyed – not sent to eternal torment. We didn’t get that delicious concept of eternal torment until the “good news” of Jesus.
      I question the goodness of a being who would send anyone to eternal (the original word means ‘of an age’) torment for any sin committed in the short time we live here – it’s in direct violation of His own rules about proportionate justice, and of course it’s not fair, just or merciful – it’s just plain evil. I question why anyone would worship a being that could behave in such an evil fashion. I don’t recall proposing that God could forgive souls sent to Hell, as I don’t think there’s any logical reason to think that a real God, if He was really “good” would ever do such a horrific thing. As for sheep and goats – humans are neither. Clearly these stories are allegorical, but the Church wants you to think they are real, because frightened people are so much easier to control.
      ma.gina bahala suggests that those who don’t accept Hell, continue in their evil ways. What about people who don’t do evil things just because they know it’s immoral to do so? Doing good because it’s the right thing to do, rather than because of hope for reward or fear of punishment, shows who is really good.
      Terrell tells us “satan is not an idiot, but is an idiot…” Huh? Which of the four Hell’s will the snake drag us to; and how is it that this devil is able to do this against God’s will? An all powerful being can’t have what it wants?
      Advera says I have the free will to go to heaven or hell. First you have to prove that these things exist, but let’s take a step back. If God is omniscient and all-knowing, then God knows if I’m going to heaven or hell, and there’s nothing I can do about it. If God knows I’m going to pick door 1, then no matter how much I want to pick door 2, I can’t do it, because God already knows which door I’m going to pick. That’s no free will. Whether we actually have free will, or whether it is just an illusion is a topic of great scientific interest these days. We shall see what they learn…
      Thanks for the comments. I try to respond to anything addressed to me. When Dan says Gannon “chooses what to ignore from all the very well thought responders from this forum,” I would ask for some examples of who and what “very well thought responders,” I’ve ignored. Dan, of course did not contribute anything to the discussion except criticism of me. I think that says more about Dan than it says about me!

  13. wacoi Reply

    Patrick Gannon, we all agree with your decision and choice to view God your way. Supernatural is hardly explainable even with your bang science it just won’t happen there is a question that science won’t solve or explain. Of course it’s beneath such learned people to believe in bible God and only pass by scriptures to find evidence for a good debate.their mind is so infiltrated that they cannot se, e come to him and be healed. (The teachers of law and pharisees had trouble taking Jesus as the son of God.)Believe what you will and respect the right to choose that others have to believe in this God, who is all love and Goodness and has done wonders to me.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      “Supernatural is hardly explainable even with your bang science…” Ah, but science has been explaining things that were assumed to be supernatural for quite some time now. Science has explained the cosmos, the weather, volcanoes, comets, earthquakes, floods, the development of species, and much, much more. What exactly has religion given us? Jesus didn’t even know that germs were bad. If he had, he could have saved millions of lives by teaching basic sanitation – but he had no clue. He even taught that it was not necessary to wash one’s hands before eating. Your bible doesn’t have a shred of science or technology that didn’t already exist at the time it was written. Religion has given us nothing in terms of explaining the supernatural – only telling us that we must believe it exists. Nonsense. We have a few things left – we don’t understand yet how life began – the first replication. We don’t understand what set the Big Bang off, and we’re still working to understand consciousness. These are just about the only things left to explain in supernatural terms – and it’s just a matter of time before we figure these things out too.
      You speak of the teachers of law and the Pharisees, but you miss the main point. Jesus railed against the clergy. His battle was with the clergy, and nothing has changed. Every time you hear that phrase “gnashing of teeth” there’s clergy involved. Jesus did not like the clergy. The clergy are still corrupt – just read any paper. Week in and week out we get sex abuse, financial scandals, hiding funds and assets to protect them from lawsuits, frivolous spending by Vatican officials, a complete lack of accounting principles, leaks to the media detailing the mess that is the Vatican. If Jesus was here now, he’d still be railing against the corruption of the clergy.
      I do not respect the right to choose when it comes to the psychological child abuse perpetuated on children, via RCC indoctrination before they are capable of critical thinking. One day when we’re civilized, we’ll put an end to it. I also don’t respect the right for believers to choose what we must do in the rest of society. Believers have no right to shove their medieval, dark age, ignorant beliefs regarding LGBTs, women’s rights, abortion, contraception, etc. You can believe what you want – but you have no right to shove it on the rest of us.

  14. Oliver Reply

    Patrick, your arguments against the Church’s dogma do strike a chord, and I admit having my own misgivings about this article but, I also believe that much of the good in me, and many like me, I’ve learned through the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t believe it’s perfect. It’s made up of people so it’s flawed. Like you, I don’t think jesus is a monster. I don’t feel any conflict in feeling that and maintaining faith in my Church. My point in saying all this Patrick is, I’m comfortable in my faith and certain that it has done me eternally more good than harm. And though I’m certain you have good intentions in your personal crusade to educate others on what they may be missing out on, and are angered by beliefs passed on through “child abuse”, know also that you too are “shoving” your world view on people who were happy children growing up, who are good people still, who are very comfortable and have every right to worship the God they choose– most of the time, harmlessly.

    Personally, my experience of “fearing the Lord” is like the fear of offending a good friend. I’d rather not offend someone i care for because, you know, I care for them. 🙂 That’s my understanding of my faith as well. But, I do act like an ass with my friends every now and again and offend God though I don’t like it.

    I don’t fault your wanting to educate others with different beliefs, but have a care about what some would go through as you push your world view.

    You may find our beliefs ignorant but the door could swing both ways.

    I believe that an intelligent loving God created the universe for a purpose. Stephen Hawking does not. Stephen Hawking believes (and I’m paraphrasing him in a discovery special I watched) that creation is a result of a mathematical equation balancing itself. He believed that the whole lot of nothing became something to balance out the nothing– kind of like math, actually, exactly because of math it seems. Personally, I believe my explanation more plausible.

    That an atheist or agnostic would choose to deny the part of a God in creation, i do not understand. That’s not to say I don’t respect any atheist. Some of my best friends are. Like pope Francis, in an article I read about him, I respect atheists that live good lives and do good without the promise of reward or threat of punishment. He said that in doing good, we should all be like atheists.

    God bless you Patrick. I know you’re a nice guy trying to help others. Sorry for not debating your issues. I just had to express some of my own.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Oliver. We know that the Catholic Church makes claims that they represent as facts, and that they have been less than honest with their sheeple. We know for example, that they translated four different words into the pagan word “Hell” that is nothing like what the original words meant (Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus). They made this torment eternal by mistranslating aionion to mean “eternal” when it means “of an age.” There has always been an intentional effort by the RCC to use fear to control the sheeple. Someone has to stand up and let people know that they should always do a “fact check” on the RCC, because they cannot be counted on to be honest. Heck, their own financial scandals, and sex scandals, make this abundantly clear.
      I don’t see myself as “shoving” my world view on other people because I only respond to what the RCC through all these articles tries to “shove” on its members or anyone else who reads these frequently misleading articles. Let’s not forget the RCC’s attempts to legislate laws that force people to adhere to their world view. When they stop “shoving” their worldview around, then we can revisit whether I and others are out of line in challenging them. Let’s not forget how the RCC “shoved” its worldview on to others through forced conversions at the point of a sword, the forced conversions of Jewish children, the inquisition and witch and heretic burnings intended to “shove” their worldview on to others, their conquest of third world countries in order to “shove” their worldview on to ignorant and helpless people. Please don’t talk to me about “shoving” worldviews around. You can’t possibly put me in the same class as the RCC in doing that!
      You say that the RCC helped you to be good, but if you need the threat of punishment or promise of reward to be a good person – then you aren’t a good person. I suspect that you are a good person and would act as such without the faith, and indeed might act even better, given that Christianity is an us versus them kind of religion that does not always bring out the best in people…

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