Bleeding Host in Poland confirmed to be the true body and blood of Christ




In Poland a consecrated host fell on the floor and picked up and placed in a container with water, according to the report by Bishop Zbigniew Kiernikowski of Legnica on Sunday. The falling of the host and it’s preservation occurred on the Christmas day of 2013, after the host was conserved in a container with water by the Parish Priest, it gradually began to turn to change color, possessing red-bloody stains.

“In February 2014, a tiny red fragment of the Host was separated and put on a corporal. The Commission ordered to take samples in order to conduct the thorough tests by the relevant research institutes,” said  Bishop Kiernikowski

The bleeding host had for sometimes now been attributed to have “the hallmarks of a Eucharistic miracle”

The final medical statement by the Department of Forensic Medicine found that “in the histopathological image, the fragments (of the Host) were found containing the fragmented parts of the cross striated muscle. It is most similar to the heart muscle. Tests also determined the tissue to be of human origin, and found that it bore signs of distress.”

Bishop Kiernikowski said he believe that the Bleeding host has “a Eucharistic miracle”, he told reporters that he took this case to the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. And the Vatican in April approved the findings and reports of the case and recommended  the parish priest, Fr.  Andrzej Ziombrze “to prepare a suitable place” for the Host so that the faithful could venerate it.

“I hope that this will serve to deepen the cult of the Eucharist and will have deep impact on the lives of people facing the Host,” Bishop Kiernikowski said.





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304 comments

  1. Patrick Gannon Reply

    Good grief, has anyone contacted the police? Is there an active murder investigation? Did anyone check the sample for pathogens or viruses, or analyzed it for diseases? Has a DNA test been performed? Has everyone involved been investigated and interrogated? Are there any missing persons? Are there any labs nearby with human tissue? Have the other hosts been tested? Are parishioners eating hosts with human tissue baked into them? When it comes to that Church, I’d make like a shepherd and get the flock out of there!

    1. FON Reply

      How disgustingly disrespectful of you Patrick.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        How disgustingly inappropriate and disrespectful not to test the sample and make sure people aren’t being fed diseased tissue that someone included in the cracker dough. Chances that this is a real miracle approach zero, given that we have no reason or evidence to believe the laws of nature have ever been broken or superseded by the supernatural. Chances that this is a hoax, nearly 100%, particularly since the motive appears to be financial – get those pilgrims to bring their offerings!

        1. Sylva Rodriguez Reply

          You obviously are not a believer in Christ. Miracles do happen. I agree you are so disrespectful.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Thank you for sharing your personal opinion of me, but it doesn’t change the fact that the very real possibility exists that this is a scam or hoax, or even worse, a case of contamination that could have (might still) make people ill. As for miracles – show me an amputated limb that grows back, and then we can talk about miracles. Yahweh can do so many things, but He can’t grow back amputee limbs – why is that?

        2. Stephen Reply

          Patrick, there are hundreds of documented cases such as this one spanning through several centuries. In every case, they have the same blood type, are all found to be alive blood (not dead), are from heart tissue having undergone serious trauma (similar to a crucifixion) and are almost always independently verified. Some to look up would be the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano as well as St. Januarius. These miracles are 100% confirmed by science and in the case of St. Januarius are still ongoing – they occur every year, continuing to defy science. God created the world, but the laws of nature have been broken many times (Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe, several of Marian apparitions, Eucharistic Miracles, incorrupt Catholic saints dead bodies, etc.). There are thousands of miracles of evidence – these are what converted me from atheism – not to mention seeing living proof of them as well.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            “Patrick, there are hundreds of documented cases such as this one spanning through several centuries.” Hundreds? OK, list 10 of them. You’re making an outrageous claim, thus the burden of proof is on you. Your personal credibility is at stake here. The last one of these in 2015 turned out to be a fungus. The Church has apparently dropped this most current one like a hot potato, given that there has been no follow up to the story. The RCC wants this one to die a silent death as they most probably, correctly figure, there’s some criminal activity or at best a hoax at work here. If they had real evidence of a miracle, don’t you think we’d hear more about it? On the ‘miracles of the church’ website, they list 3 miracles, all of which happened centuries before modern science. Give me 7 more.
            .
            “In every case, they have the same blood type, are all found to be alive blood (not dead), are from heart tissue having undergone serious trauma (similar to a crucifixion) and are almost always independently verified.” In every case – hunh – going back centuries, hunh? You mean back before science even had tests for such things? We didn’t even know about blood types until the early 1900s, but I’ll be satisfied if you can give me a handful of documented cases in the last 200 years when we had blood typing available. Speaking of technology, Jesus was supposed to be a god, but he didn’t even know that germs killed millions of people. He even told his followers it was unnecessary to wash one’s hands before eating. Most of these miracles were “tested” and “documented” at a time when the sun was still going around the earth and leeches were used to remove toxins from people. They didn’t even know what germs were and how a host might become contaminated.
            .
            “Some to look up would be the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano as well as St. Januarius.” Lanciano occurred in the 8th century. It’s completely unprovable from a scientific perspective because there is no clear trail of evidence. There’s no way to prove what really happened 1300 years ago. The event was said to have occurred in 700 CE, but wasn’t even reported till 1000 years later. Lanciano’s miracle cannot be proven by science. St. Januarius died even earlier in 305 CE, and his miracle did not have anything to do with the host – it was said that some of his blood was saved – this claim also made over 1000 years after he died – and that this blood had some interesting interesting properties – none of which has ever been proven. Clearly there was no DNA testing or blood-typing in those days. These cases are most clearly NOT “documented” in any useful way to confirm their veracity.
            .
            “These miracles are 100% confirmed by science and in the case of St. Januarius are still ongoing – they occur every year, continuing to defy science.” No they don’t. The alleged blood of St. Januarius is locked up in a vial and the RCC refuses to let it be opened. Scientists have proposed theories for what might be in the vial, but they are not permitted to test it using modern testing methods. You know, this information is pretty easy to get online before you go public with misinformation, thus bringing into question your credibility.
            .
            “God created the world, but the laws of nature have been broken many times (Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe, several of Marian apparitions, Eucharistic Miracles, incorrupt Catholic saints dead bodies, etc.).” There is actually no accepted scientific evidence for any of these “miracles,” otherwise they would no longer be debated. Whether your god created the world is also unknown, as there is no objective evidence for this god. I’m unaware of scientifically documented cases of the laws of nature being broken, but would be happy to review these if you can provide them.
            .
            “There are thousands of miracles of evidence – these are what converted me from atheism – not to mention seeing living proof of them as well.” I’m unaware of a single miracle with scientific evidence to support it. That might convert me from agnosticism – so bring them on. Prove it – but understand that your credibility has been damaged by the misinformation and unsupported claims in your post, so you’re going to have to bring very convincing information to overcome the lack of trust any honest observer would have for your claims.

          2. Kelsey Hinds

            Stephen thank you so much for sharing your story! What a beautiful story in such troubled times. It’s so nice to hear a former atheists who has converted! I pray for atheists all the time, I pray they convert and find God just like you did. God still loves them very much, I just pray the come to realize that. It really moves me to hear stories like yours so I just wanted to say thanks!

          3. Margarida

            Patrick Gannon: Miracles are just that – MIRACLES – not a scientific experiment!!! You have allowed Satan to take control of your soul and is speaking through you. Thankfully, we believers REJECT SATAN!!! As Pope Francis recently stated “GOD IS STRONGER THAN SATAN”. In the end of times, GOD WILL PREVAIL!!! My fellow Christians, let’s pray for Patrick to truly see God’s Light.

          4. Patrick Gannon

            Have you read the entire bible? Are you really familiar with the acts of Yahweh? “In the end of times, God will prevail” you proclaim. So why worry about it if it’s preordained. Why does there have to be a big battle between Satan and God if the outcome is already known? What if Satan doesn’t show up? After all, Satan is not the one with bloodlust. Yahweh kills millions in the bible – count up for me how many people Satan kills.

        3. Daily Marcellina Reply

          Patrick Cannon, sounds you r an atheist. S sad

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Agnostic, actually. I was born with a brain, and eventually I got over my Catholic indoctrination and started using it.

        4. Jerry Ariesga Reply

          You believe it hoax because ypu simply closed your doors to possibilities. I pity you brother for not believing on this one. Already said that tne tissue is part of a human flesh particularly in the heart, this miracle first happend in lanciano italy when an ordained priest have a doubt in the eucharist to be the body of Christ, IF that was a diseased real flesh included in the cracker you said how possibly it bled? If you can see all, crackers you have said is in white color. Let us pun in an instance that it is really a diseased thingy that you have said why did it bleed? Think of it twice. Again i pity you for not believing on the eucharist. Christ him self instituted the Eucharist by the night before his passion.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Why is this undocumented, unsupported, so-called miracle, so important to you? This thread has received amazing contribution compared with most other threads (except those having to do with sex). Why are people so wrapped around the axle over a miracle account that comes with no documentation or evidence? Why the desperation for a real sign? The transubstantiation apparently isn’t good enough. That’s pretty hard to believe in, isn’t it? So anything that smacks of a “real” miracle gets all this attention, though it’s a very poor example of a miracle, given the total lack of evidentiary support.
            .
            The article says it was tested – so do all the other articles in similar publications that copy each other and say the same thing – but not a one of them says who did the testing or makes the reports available. Why are you so gullible? If they had these reports, they would have included source links – that’s what responsible journalists do. This is junk journalism and you people who believe this nonsense are PT Barnum’s suckers, and you’re upset with me for pointing out this to you. Well, deal with it. Stop responding to me and email the Vatican and ask if this is a Vatican supported or accepted miracle, and ask them for the evidence that the article alludes to but does not include.

          2. Belinda Stephens

            To Kathy and Patrick……1) Kathy….you cannot argue with an idiot…they always find problems for every solution; he’s not going to hear you….ever…he is a “closed” door living in darkness. 2)Patrick…..for myself and myself only….not trying to “change” your mind; I would rather live my life believing there is a God…die to find out there’s not than to live my life NOT believing in God and then after death finding out there is…..just sayin. I wonder what could have happened to you through-out your life to make you so bitter towards God….a God you say doesn’t exist. Don’t you think that is a lot of wasted energy??? If you don’t believe in something why even question it or others that do believe???

          3. Patrick Gannon

            Did I say gods or afterlives don’t exist? I don’t think they do, but it’s possible. What I’ve said repeatedly is undeniable – that we have no objective evidence for these things.
            .
            You say you’d rather live your life believing there is a god, and then be proven wrong when you die; but what if you believe in the wrong god? What it Allah really is the true god, or what if the JWs were right, or the Southern Baptists, or the Hindus? You’re throwing the dice any way you look at it. Throughout history there have been thousands of gods, and we have no evidence for any of them.
            .
            I take the stance that if there is a god, then this god has gone out of his way to make sure we don’t know about his existence, and I think this god, would be more likely to reward those who question his existence and seek truth, rather than those who are simply sheep accepting what they’ve been told, and failing to use the gifts of logic, reason and critical thinking. Read the parable of the talents and just imagine how angry your god might be that you never used these gifts you were born with.

        5. Andrew Eberlein Reply

          Want some miracles? How about incorrupt bodies? Note: incorrupt does not mean completely free from deterioration, but remarkably free from deterioration.

          First, fast list of many since you claimed you wanted 100 miracles. This isn’t 100, but hopefully it is enough:
          St Etheldreda was born and died in the 600s, body was claimed incorrupt in 1106. Her body is still here today, though I guess we haven’t checked on it in a while.
          Bl. Margaret of Castello died in 1320. In 1558 her remains were transferred because, though her coffin and clothes were rotten, her body was incorrupt. Again, we haven’t check on it in a while.
          St. Catherine of Bologna died in 1463 and you can see her incorrupt body today on display.
          Saint Rita died in 1457 and her incorrupt body is on display.
          St. John Vianney died in 1859 and his body (wearing a wax mask, again, not completely free of deterioration) is on display in Ars France.

          Now my favorite! St. Bernadette Soubirous died in 1879. She was exhumed in 1909 and while her crucifix and rosary had oxidized, her body was incorrupt. She was exhumed again in 1919 and 1925 to take relics and make a wax mask. In 1928 Doctor Comte published a report on yet another exhumation. It is rather long and I’m already fearing plagiarism with this post, so I’ll present some highlights here.
          “I would have liked to open the left side of the thorax to take the ribs as relics and then remove the heart which I am certain must have survived.”
          “What struck me during this examination, of course, was the state of perfect preservation of the skeleton, the fibrous tissues of the muscles (still supple and firm), of the ligaments, and of the skin, and above all the totally unexpected state of the liver after 46 years. One would have thought that this organ, which is basically soft and inclined to crumble, would have decomposed very rapidly or would have hardened to a chalky consistency. Yet, when it was cut it was soft and almost normal in consistency.”

          Now of course you might claim that this is all a big hoax, and I have no proof it is not. You have no proof that it is. The scientific evidence is here for you to accept. Science isn’t about creating models then forcing the universe to conform to those models, it is about creating models that conform to the universe. So if these bodies truly are corrupt, not only can we have great faith that God wanted to keep them corrupt for some reason, but science should accept these facts as well.

          I do appreciate your concern for the well being of others, but I would also appreciate if you could be more respectful to your fellow humans.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Andrew you presented no scientific evidence. That would require a chain of evidence that ensured that the condition of the subject was known and not tampered with from the time of death to now. We also know that certain burial conditions can cause the skin to take on a waxy, soap-like complexion, and we know that this condition does not happen just to Catholics – they seem to dig up more of their dead than anyone else for some gruesome reason. We also know that this condition has occurred to individuals who are less than “holy” and indeed were not good people in life. You quoted a doctor who wanted to open up the body, but was not permitted to do so. The doctor confirmed that the body was deteriorating, such that they had to put a wax covering on it to prevent further deterioration. Until proven otherwise, the most obvious conclusion is that this is a natural process. It may occur far more often than we think – it’s just that most of us don’t go around irreverently digging up dead saints like the RCC does.
            .
            You speak of respect for fellow humans, but what if they are being scammed? What if the Bishop at this town wanted to bring in some much needed revenue, so he invented this miracle? What if there is actually criminal activity involved here? If this is heart tissue, where did it come from? Who died recently, and under strain? Perhaps what was reported in terms of heart strain is common for heart attack victims. This article and a number of others that mostly copy it verbatim in other publications offer no evidence whatsoever for any testing that may have taken place. The researchers are not identified, no report is identified, no sources are provided to this material. It is asserted that the Vatican approved this as a miracle in some articles but not all, and there is no evidence presented that the Vatican has indeed accepted this as a miracle. The burden of proof is on those making outrageous claims, sn no such proof is provided here.
            .
            What we know is that miracles are the least likely occurrence. If miracles were common, then they wouldn’t be miracles. Given that they are the least likely explanation, something can only be deemed a miracle if all other possible explanations are removed – and that clearly has not happened here.

          2. Kelsey Hinds

            Man I could not have put that into better words myself. I tried to bring up the point of St. Padre Pio’s body being incorrupt and how he suffered the stigmata but nothing seemed to change the minds of the people who don’t believe. I was told that God and Satan are fairy tales. I will stand up for my Catholic faith any day of the week, and I remain humble and truthful just as you did. Even tho on the inside I feel very different. So thank you for the wonderful post! And may God have mercy on the people who don’t believe. They will remain in my prayers.

          3. Nnamdi Oranye

            Infact I read this article some while back and it mentioned the Pathologist, the institution and the state. Atheists are simply burdensome, the little knowledge they have takes up all their brain function, they simply have to beat other ppl with it. This morose wise arse is a typical eg. Stop wasting your breath

        6. Jihan Perez Zeltner Reply

          @ Patrick Ganon

          This is sad. When I was reading your comments it made me think must be Satan is rejoicing for you. Do not be deceived by your own wisdom, it’s folly. Like King Pharaoh who’s heart was hard.These people here are instruments to give you light. God will not come after you, but it is clear that if you deny God, he will deny you also when the accountable time comes.

          I would not say anything here except this quote from the Bible.
          “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, …”
          ‎Matthew 7:6

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Prove Satan exists. There is no objective evidence for such a being.
            .
            You may recall that Yahweh hardened the heart of Pharaoh and then tortured and killed innocent Egyptians. Yahweh, if he existed would be a very evil god. How many people in the bible did Satan kill? How many innocents did Yahweh murder?
            .
            You’re clearly threatening me with Hell – so tell me, which of the four Hell’s will I be going to? You do know that the Church incorrectly translated four different words to the pagan word “Hell,” right?
            .
            I actually prefer the passage before the one you cited: ““Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2 For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s[a] eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your neighbor,[b] ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s[c] eye.
            .
            There are some very large specks in the eyes of believers.

          2. Miguel

            For those who believe no explanation is needed and for those who do not,no explanation is possible.

          3. Patrick Gannon

            “For those who believe no explanation is needed and for those who do not,no explanation is possible.”

            WRONG. Many of us who do not believe, would do so if evidence was provided. Please note that explanations are of little value without evidence to back them up. You can explain to me all day long how a miracle took place, but until you can show me how something immaterial affected the material particles in that host, then you have nothing of value to offer. Claiming a miracle happened, means claiming that he laws of physics are broken, and we have never seen evidence of that happening. We know all the things that can affect particles with an extremely high degree of reliability. There are no actions of particles that we cannot explain. There are no unseen forces acting on the particles of that microbe-contaminated host to cause it to change colors. What happened is perfectly natural and explained by the rules of our physical matter reality.

            Let’s take a little closer look at your post: If I believe in unicorns, then no explanation is needed. I can simply believe in them, and you won’t question me or ask me why I am believing in something for which there is no evidence? My belief in unicorns is good enough to justify and prove the existence of unicorns, right? That’s what you’re saying. And if you don’t believe in unicorns and I trot one out and present it to you, will you continue to lack belief? That’s a cute little quip you posted, Miguel, but it’s nonsensical.

        7. Anton Reply

          Hello sir Patrick, if you doubt the happenings of miracles you can do a quick research about Kisha e Lacit, a church in my country. During communism 32 atheists communists were sent by the secret service to take down the church. Just when they started destroying it, all of them were paralysed in an instant. 32 men, same time, same symptoms. They were sent to Austria for recuperation, after their recovery they all converted to catholics. The communists blamed the milk. But I dont think milk paralyses 32 healthy men in an instant same time. Sir, you may not believe, but please do not come to such pages and denying our God. Many other miracles happened there aswell. Milions of people worldwide come to visit it. From all religions. I highly doubt it is a hoax. Thank for your time sir.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Anton, I can’t find anything on the web regarding your so-called “miracle.” Please provide some source information. While Communism professes to be an atheist religion (in some ways, Communism itself could be considered a religion that worships the state), not all Communists were by definition atheists. Most probably weren’t. Since I can’t find any report of your miracle (for example: “Your search – Kisha e Lacit miracle 32 atheists paralyzed – did not match any documents”), I can’t comment on what may or may not have contributed to their condition, but I’m sure there’s a rational explanation, probably something to do with the milk you mentioned.
            .
            We have to look at what is the most likely explanation for things we don’t understand. A miracle, by definition, is the least likely explanation, because miracles are rare, and rare things are therefore not the most likely explanation for something not yet understood. Jumping to the conclusion that a miracle has occurred, when miracles are the least likely explanation, gives away the confirmation bias sought by the believer.
            .
            I am not denying your god. I am questioning the existence of your god and asking for objective evidence of his/her/its existence. The very foundation for the Abrahamic gods have been washed out. There was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan. Non-religious scholars are largely in agreement over these points, and without these things, there is nothing upon which to base the existence of Yahweh, your god. There may or may not be gods and afterlives; humans do not know. We have no objective evidence for such things, and our brains know that. Yet we lie to ourselves and tell our brains to believe things they know they have no evidence for. I think this must necessarily set up internal cognitive conflicts, which cannot be healthy for us, and such internal conflicts might explain why so many Christians are so “hostile to the other.”
            .
            Sorry Anton, but “When you believe in things that you don’t understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain’t the way.” (Stevie Wonder) The year is 2016. It’s time to retire the primitive superstitions of the Iron Age.

        8. Sandra Reply

          Patrick, I am so sorry that you have been so hurt by someone in the Church. I have prayed to ur Blessed Mother to intercede for you and The Father toput someone in your life to show you the beauty of Christ’s Church. God bless you.

        9. Natalie Cox Reply

          Before commenting, you should research how the investigations are done. Typically the investigators are independent medical teams from many areas of expertise, and are NOT affiliated with the church. The investigation does include pathological and microbiological reports (see the investigation from Salt Lake City recently that suspected a miracle but was found to be a yeast fungi and was reported by the church as such). That is why it take so long–YEARS. If it noticed the miracle occurred On Christmas Day 2013 and was not approved by the Vatican until after an exhaustive investigation is completed, approved in 2016. Those are the facts.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Maybe before posting, the author should have looked at and documented how the investigation was done. If you keep reading, you’ll discover that the available evidence indicates that the Bishop sent the sample to one lab and didn’t get the results he wanted, so he sent a contaminated sample to another lab and got what he wanted, and then proclaimed it to be a miracle. There is no evidence I can find that suggests that the Vatican agrees that it is indeed a miracle.
            .
            You said, “the miracle occurred On Christmas Day 2013 and was not approved by the Vatican until after an exhaustive investigation is completed, approved in 2016” Please, please, please provide evidence that the Vatican approved this miracle. I’m pretty good at searching, and I can find no evidence to support this assertion. I cannot agree that it is a “fact” until you provide some evidence to support it.
            .
            There must be some official Vatican recognition of this so-called miracle. Please find it for us, along with the evidence that they used to make the determination.

        10. Alkanse Zabrinski Wawatchinanggo Reply

          Your multiple questions just leave you ignorant of how an investigation should go about. Should I tell you the concepts and procedures like a two years old?

      2. May Castro-Africa Reply

        That is so DISRESPECTFUL of you. Even the satanist believes that that is the Body and Blood of Christ. If you dont believe….WHY are you eve on this site?? Trolling???

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          I just checked the media again for an update on this story – and there is none. The Church allowed this story to die a silent death. They knew something was not right. Hosts do not develop blood in them unless someone has tampered with them – otherwise why don’t all hosts exhibit this condition?
          .
          The lack of disrespect is to those who may have consumed contaminated substances. If this event had been real, there would have been continuing media coverage as the samples were tested to ensure that no criminal activity took place. There hasn’t been a single word of update on the story since it broke. It’s almost certainly a scam, or just some gossip that got out of hand.
          .
          And, you don’t seem to know the definition of “troll.” I’m on topic.

          1. Kelsey Hinds

            Patrick I have wonderful news for you, God still loves you. I will start praying for you. Please know that I do not wish to fight because that would do us no good, but please know there is still time for you to repent and live in the peaceful bliss of our Lord. God Bless

          2. Patrick Gannon

            Prove this god of yours exists. Till then His love for me is useless and immaterial. As usual, you default to the Christian Mafia tactic which deploys extortion. I must believe, say and do what you and others tell me, or I will be choosing to go to eternal torment, like the storekeeper who refuses to pay the Mafia goon his take, and therefore “chooses” to have his knees removed. The Catholic god is a Mafia thug who uses extortion to get what He wants.
            .
            Fortunately there is no reason to fear. The Church translated four different words, (Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus) to the pagan word Hell (Hel), and none of those words means Hell as we think of it. Please look them up. They also mistranslated the word “aionion” to “eternal” but it means “of an age” and ages always end, so Hell is not what they said it was and it’s not eternal, and no good god would ever send anyone to eternal torment, and if such an evil being existed, it would be fair to fear this monster, but certainly there should be no respect for anyone worshipping Him.

          3. Kelsey Hinds

            Patrick this is why God gave you free will. You are free to choose what you say, do and believe. Yet whatever you choose he still loves you. His mercy endures forever!

          4. Patrick Gannon

            If I have free will, it’s because humans evolved it. Whether we really have free will is questionable and the subject of much debate in scientific and philosophical circles. If God exists, I would assume She wants me to use the tools I evolved to decipher reality as best I can using intellect, logic, reason, critical thinking, etc. The Parable of the Talents tells us what happens to those who don’t use such gifts.
            .
            You suggest again that belief is a choice. One doesn’t choose to believe; you either do or you don’t,. based on what you’ve learned, or been told or been exposed to. I couldn’t “choose” to believe in Hinduism – I don’t know enough about it to even consider that choice. I’ve investigated Christianity extensively, and the more I learn, the more I realize it’s all myth. I couldn’t “choose” to believe now if I wanted to – it would just be paying lip service, and surely an all-powerful being that takes perverse pleasure in monitoring and recording everything we do with our clothes off, would also take a passing interest in the fact that I was pretending to believe something by paying lip service to it. If you want me to believe, you’re going to have to give me reason to do so that is based on objective evidence, and not on threat of an imaginary punishment – I investigated Hell and the one the RCC generally refers to – Gehenna – the Jerusalem town dump – it’s been closed for a very long time, and you have to want Jesus to be a monster in order to interpret his words about Gehenna as anything but allegorical.
            .
            You say “his mercy endures forever, and yet in your prior post you warned me of an eternity of torment. Torture is never love. Sending innocent aborted, miscarried or stillborns to Hell is not love or mercy. Show me a single parent torturing their child and tell me that parent loves the child. The very concept that our species is born sick and commanded to be well, and then sentenced to billions and trillions of endless years in excruciating torment, while the longest we could have possibly sinned is the few decades we lived here, is as evil a concept as mankind has ever come up with. How can one be expected to have respect for an individual who would worship such a god? The only excuse is the fear and psychological abuse that Christians were indoctrinated with.

          5. Kelsey Hinds

            Patrick you must have me confused with someone else, I never said anything about hell. You seem like you do a lot of research, I have something for you to research. St. Padre Pio! A wonderful Saint who bore the scars of Christ. I also wish you would research St. Padre Pio 3 days of darkness. If you still do not believe then Patrick, you will never hear a word from me again. Just know you will always be in my prayers.

          6. Patrick Gannon

            Kelsey you said, “please know there is still time for you to repent and live in the peaceful bliss of our Lord.” Clearly the opposite of the peaceful bliss of our Lord is Hell. What else would it be? Clearly your insinuation that I need to repent indicates that you believe I’m going to Hell if I don’t. What else could you have been referring to?
            .
            And what’s so great about bliss? It won’t be you. The prayer says, “thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” That’s God’s will, not ours. We lose free will in heaven. We become zombies. How else could we have peaceful bliss? If we still had our wits about us and still had free will, we would be overwhelmed by the angst and horror at all the billions of people roasting in Hell, many of them friends and family who simply failed to believe, say or do the right thing. Nobody in heaven could be happy if they knew of people suffering in Hell, and if they could be happy at the misery of others, then they probably aren’t good enough to be in heaven, wouldn’t you think? Whoever it is in heaven, it won’t be “you” the “you” that you think of in your head, because that “you” is probably far too decent a human being to enjoy the idea that billions of people are roasting for all of eternity and you can’t do anything about it. You’d have to be a drugged out, zombified, shell of a human in order to enjoy that – and that’s what peaceful bliss is. I don’t care about that person. That won’t be me. If “I” make it to heaven, “I” won’t be “me.” I’ll be someone else who is essentially brain dead. I don’t see the attraction. I’d rather just be dead. The carrot of heaven does not appeal to me, and I see no biblical or reality based support for the stick of Hell, so I think I’ll just die and be done with it all when the time comes. No fuss, no muss.

          7. Kelsey Hinds

            I still never said anything about hell. Because there is still a chance for purgatory. But what really got my attention is you said IF I make it to heaven, which means there is somewhere inside of you that believes there is a heaven. I hope you get the opportunity to look up St. Padre Pio. Especially The 3 Days of Darkness. If that doesn’t make you want to come back to the Catholic Faith, then Godspeed. If it does I’m willing to help you with whatever you need. No questions asked

          8. Patrick Gannon

            I’m sorry Kelsey, but that sounds pretty disingenuous. Why would I need to repent if not to avoid some sort of punishment? You say right here that I have a chance for purgatory, and that clearly implies that you think I’ll be going to Hell if I don’t believe what you believe. Christians almost always suggest to non-believers that they are going to Hell. You are no different. It’s so very Christian of you folks to do that, whether you say it directly, which is more honest, or whether you not so subtly hide it in disingenuous language, as you have.

            Have you looked up the four words that the RCC translated to the pagan word Hell? (Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus). I’m just not all that concerned. One is a place of death, not punishment, one is a shuttered town dump, and the other two are of Greek pagan origin.

            When I said “If” I make it to heaven, I was speaking in a literary hypothetical. Some of the gospels, such as Mark, are written in a very intricate, well organized, mirror/circular fashion that clearly illustrates the use of literary techniques commonly used at the time. Mark’s gospel is not the result of oral tradition – it is a very carefully crafted literary work of art that is designed to tell a particular story intended to help turn a mythical Jesus into a real Jesus in order to make it easier to spread the gospel to less sophisticated people. Matthew disagreed with some of Mark, so he copied and altered, and Luke disagreed with Matthew, so he copied and altered while John uses a completely different literary technique to rewrite the three prior gospels to his way of liking. It’s all based on mythology. My point though, is that if the gospels can be written in a literary style, and if their primary character can use various techniques such as parables and allegory to get across his message, then I think I can use a little literary license when writing as well. There is zero evidence for either the Catholic heaven or hell, so my writing style should not be interpreted to mean I think these things exist – because the probabilities in my mind are very close to zero. You nit-picked me without addressing my point – which is how to question how heaven can be peaceful bliss without one being turned into a zombie first.

            I looked up the Three Days of Darkness and it’s not endorsed by the Holy See, thus is of no value in this Catholic forum. There’s no need to debate something that the RCC itself does not endorse. Take it up with the Church. There is zero evidence for the mass Exodus from Egypt, so a prophecy that mirrors that mythical event is of no consequence. I must wonder though, do you agree that the current pope is an “antipope?” Clearly many of the authors who post articles here do, questioning and countering every halfway civilized thing he says.

            “Adherents of the Three Days of Darkness are usually traditionalist Catholics or sedevacantists. The latter group hopes that a “true pope” will be miraculously designated by an apparition of Saint Peter and Saint Paul; this tangential belief assumes that the most recent pontiffs of the Church are in fact “antipopes”. There is also controversy over whether the twentieth-century saint and stigmatist Saint Pio endorsed and taught on the future Three Days of Darkness as the authenticity of the alleged words of Saint Pio are disputed.[4][5]

          9. Kelsey Hinds

            I never once insinuated you were going to hell or purgatory. You were the one that brought up hell in the first place. Only God can judge where you are going. Just because I said you should repent doesn’t mean your going to hell. Back to St. Padre Pio how do you explain his body being incorrupt. He died in 1968 and in 2008 before being canonized they found his body incorrupt. Along with hundreds of other saints. There are many scientists and forensic teams who are floored by this. You know why??? Because it’s a miracle. And just for the record I was very sincere in helping you get back into Catholicism. When it all comes down to it I don’t even know you. I was just trying to help you. I haven’t even hardly read anyone else’s comments because I’ve been so wrapped up in yours. So it is what it is I guess. Good Luck

          10. Patrick Gannon

            Kelsey, what else could you have possibly meant? From my perspective, you seem to be trying to save me from Hell, and you think because you don’t specifically use those words that I don’t know what you’re talking about? I was born and raised Catholic. I know when Hell, or the threat thereof is being referenced – but let’s drop it. I have little to repent for, and if I do need to make amends, I will make them to whoever I hurt, and your god is supposed to be all-powerful and can’t be hurt – so no need, even if He did exist.
            .
            As to the question of incorruptible bodies… it must first be noted that just because something has not yet been explained, in this or any other subject, does not mean “God did it.” This is called the “God of the Gaps” argument, but it makes your god weak when you argue it. God was once responsible for lightning and earthquakes and comets and volcanoes, the firmament, and for the sun going around the earth; so just because we don’t have an answer to a question doesn’t mean “God did it.” Secondly the Catholic Church has distanced itself from this process as a condition for sainthood. Non-Catholics and indeed some rather unsavory people have also been found to share in this condition. It’s not a Catholic phenomenon. Catholics just gruesomely dig up more of their dead saints than anyone else, I guess. Cadavers start decomposing once they are moved or discovered, and so in most cases are then treated with something to maintain the appearance as long as possible. This might be wax or other substances. I’m curious if you ever did a google search to see if you could find a rational explanation for this condition before just believing what you heard or read? Do one now. See what you can learn about ‘incorruptible bodies,’ and then see if that raises your level of skepticism a millimeter or so. HowStuffWorks has a good overview. Damp, alkaline environments can cause skin to undergo a chemical change that turns it into a hard, waxy, soap like substance. They look like something you’d find in a wax museum. Finally, it’s just assumed that this is a very rare phenomenon, but most of us don’t dig up large numbers of dead people. It could be that this is a far more ordinary condition than we think. As for St. Padre Pio, a Reuters article said he was in pretty sad shape and was going to take a fair amount of reconstruction work, when he was first exhumed. There’s nothing supernatural going on here. Come up with a real miracle, verified by science, and there won’t be anything else on the news, just like there’s nothing in the news about this Polish event. If it was real – we’d know it.
            .
            In summary, there are not a lot of scientists and forensics teams stumped by this. I don’t think there are any experienced, competent scientists who would admit to that. I couldn’t really find any scientist you could pin that on – only journalists – Catholic journalists, who seem to have said such things. Please provide some sources. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Surely you’ve heard that before? Don’t bother to provide sources that come from the Church or its affiliates. Those are not unbiased sources.
            .
            As an aside, perhaps you should focus on helping people who ask for your help. It’s rather condescending to assume someone needs help without asking first. It’s rude to walk up to someone on the street and just assume they need your help, without asking first – and that applies to this topic as well. Imagine you’re handling your kids just fine and some busybody steps in and starts talking about how they are going to help you, even if you don’t want it; insinuating that you do need help, that you’re doing it wrong, that you don’t know what you’re doing, that you’re inept? If I want help, I’ll ask. Most people will let you know they want help, if you ask them. Debate or discuss issues with me and I’ll respect you and gladly participate. Insinuate that you’re superior to me because you assume that I need your help, and, not that it should matter to you, but my respect will surely waver.

          11. Kelsey Hinds

            Lol I think you understand clearly my intentions were good. Your trying to make me look like a bully. I have proven once again that God is real because you could not back up as to why these saints bodies are incorrupt!! I think my work here is finished. Prayers are truly a powerful weapon!

          12. Patrick Gannon

            Kelsey, your intentions may have been good in your mind, but as someone who did not request your help, your intentions were misdirected and unappreciated. Debate me if you will, but don’t pretend to “help” me. I don’t need your help, unless that means providing me with objective evidence for your claims. I didn’t think of you as a bully; good heavens, no! (just an expression). That would have to mean that I was intimidated by you, which certainly is not the case. I was just pointing out that in so many discussions that I have with Christians, there comes a point, usually towards the end of the debate or discussion, but often right off the bat, like you, that suggests that I better get in line or face the music – and being Catholics (or recovering Catholics in my case), we all know that means HELL. And there is no Hell. They lied to you. They translated four words that don’t mean Hell as you think of it, into that pagan word, and then fed you visual images from Dante and Milton to scare the pure living bejeeszus out of you – it’s psychological child abuse, that is difficult to overcome. I know, so I point it out when I see it so Catholics are aware of how ingrained this fear is. I hope they will look up the words and learn how the RCC misled us, and how, if they were correct, our condition did not improve with Jesus – it got much worse, as there was no punishing Hell in the bible before he came. Hell was not a place of punishment prior to his mythological creation. (See: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus). I’m going to guess you haven’t read the complete bible, beginning to end, but I surely encourage you to do so, and take note of how women are treated by Yahweh, not to mention the priests of the time, as you read it. You have my permission to skip the pages full of boring “begats!”

            You did not prove “once again that God is real.” You haven’t proven once that your god is real. If there was proof, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. I discussed the science behind the body conditions, and suggested how you might educate yourself, but you did not even attempt to refute me, did you? How can you say you proved anything? You don’t seem to understand how this works. If something is rare, that means it is unlikely, and the probabilities are against it, and that means the burden of proof is on the one making the claim – and miracles are highly unlikely. If you claim that there is a miracle here, then you need to trot out your sources and prove it. No such evidence exists, I suspect, or we wouldn’t be discussing it, as science would have confirmed it. With extraordinary claims, I don’t have to prove it didn’t happen – you have to prove it did. You have not even tried to do so. Explain why non-Catholics, including some rather unsavory characters have been found in this condition…
            .
            Yes, perhaps your work here is finished. You have illustrated, as do so many believers, that you cannot and will not back up outrageous claims. If your claim cannot stand up to that scrutiny, then it cannot be accepted as factual. You can continue to lie to your brain which knows what it does and doesn’t know, and “believe” in whatever it is – but that’s what you’re doing – you’re lying to yourself, and deep down your brain knows it. When someone like me comes along and creates cognitive conflict by pointing out that your beliefs are unfounded, that internal cognitive conflict generally gives rise to hostility, which I think is why that is often the point at which I am informed of my eventual station in Hell, or having lost the battle due to a lack of evidence, the believer bails out with self-serving platitudes that attempt to cover up their failure to win, or even really participate in the debate, by presenting an argument for their side. Brush up on your debating skills and I’ll be happy to engage in this or any other topic you care to challenge me on. I respond to a lot of CatholicSay posts. There’s a lot of propaganda being floated (and a lot of barely hidden hostility to the current pope on the part of a number of the authors!).

          13. Kelsey Hinds

            I do not need to have the last word to prove that this is a Eucharistic Miracle. You and I both know they have already done DNA testing and that is why the police are not investigating any further into this. I’m sorry is DNA testing not good enough for you? Even they know that it is a miracle. Think about it, if they Truly believed that someone had been “murdered” like you think, why are they not investigating further. Because there is nothing more to investigate! There is evidence for you. Cold hard evidence whether you like it or not, you have absolutely no evidence backing up your theory because it’s all made up! one more thing and im sure you know this already but just in case you don’t once you are baptized a Catholic your always a Catholic! You can be excommunicated and start to believe that none of this real, but you know the truth Patrick, your always going to be Catholic! I know you will make your back eventually. You can make whatever you want to up and start believing what you are making up in your head, but Once your baptized Catholic your always a Catholic whether you like it or not. And once we are all done living in this world where we are not yet home, you know just as well as I do that we will be judged. All you have to do is read the bible, the Roman Catholic bible that let me remind you Jesus himself wrote. The one and only true bible. And that my friend is all I need I need to say. Anything you have to say back is just gibberish to me (not to sound rude) because you have zero evidence.

          14. Patrick Gannon

            Kelsey, all we have is this: The Department of Forensic Medicine stated that, “In the histopathological image, the fragments of tissue have been found containing the fragmented parts of the cross striated muscle…[The whole] is most similar to the heart muscle with alterations that often appear during the agony. The genetic researches indicate the human origin of the tissue.”

            “Histopathological image” means they looked at it with a microscope and supposedly identified heart tissue. As I read this, it asserts that the whole sample was heart tissue – and thus wasn’t a Eucharist at all. Who did the exam? Where is the report? This happened three years ago. The Dept of Forensic Medicine has had nothing further to say on this event as best I can tell from extensive searching.
            .
            They go on to say the genetic research indicates the human origin, but they provide no explanation for what sort of genetic research was conducted. The words, “DNA testing” are not in this or any other article I’ve read on this matter, and no evidence has been provided that I’m aware of to indicate that such testing was done.
            .
            The picture that this article and many others reporting the same thing use, dates back to 2005, so we’ve got a case of junk journalism to begin with. The picture in the article here is not associated with the host in Poland, and they don’t tell you that, but a quick search on the image confirms that the picture has nothing to do with the article – that’s fraudulent, misleading journalism, particularly in a case like this.
            .
            So what do we have? If the RCC really had forensic evidence to support their assertion that this was a real miracle, why doesn’t it trot out the evidence? Where are the digital slides of the samples, so other researchers can look at it? Where is the documented chain of evidence for the samples? Who conducted the research, and what are their credentials? Who peer-reviewed the report? If you turned this in as a science project in school you would fail.
            .
            If we have heart tissue in place of a Eucharist, what’s the most likely thing? Are miracles likely? No, if they were common, they wouldn’t be miracles, so they are the least likely occurrence. What is the most likely? Well we have an outright scam, or perhaps a felony, perhaps even a health issue to deal with. How likely is it that there was a real miracle? Close to zero – because that’s what makes things miracles – that they are extremely unlikely.
            .
            The article goes on to say that the Bishop believed it was a miracle (why not – the tourism would be great for his diocese), and he says he took it to the Vatican which approved it as a miracle in April. Where is that proclamation by the Vatican? Shouldn’t there be some sort of document to confirm that? Why have there been no updates to this story? Why has the research facility maintained silence, and nothing further about this event can be found? If the Vatican actually had this evidence why wouldn’t they trumpet it from the highest mountains? In all likelihood, it’s because they have no such evidence, and they don’t want to make fools of themselves. Just how gullible can believers be?
            .
            What is your point in telling me that I’m stuck with being a Catholic? Is that supposed to hurt me? LOL. What boon does that grant me? If I masturbate and fail to go to confession, I’m going to Hell, Catholic or not, right? The Catholic Church keeps people like me on the rolls because if they didn’t they would have to show just how many members they are actually losing. In case you didn’t know, according to Pew Research, the “nones,” or those who are unaffiliated with any religion, and which includes humanists, freethinkers, atheists, agnostics, etc., has become the single largest voting block in America, at 21%, while Catholicism and Evangelical religion have both fallen to 20% and the trend of people leaving the church seems to be accelerating. You’re with the losing team.
            .
            You talk about making things up, but I’m the one asking for evidence. That’s not making things up. What have I made up? Prove I made something up, or stand accused of bearing false witness.
            .
            You said, “All you have to do is read the bible, the Roman Catholic bible that let me remind you Jesus himself wrote.” WRONG! You go and ask your priest if Jesus wrote the bible. That’s total nonsense. You don’t know anything about the bible if you say that. Jesus, if he actually lived, didn’t write a single word that we have today – not a word; and he certainly had nothing to do with writing the Old Testament, which was written before he supposedly lived. The NT is written by a number of authors and the only one we’re sure about is Paul who wrote first, some 20 years after Jesus supposedly died, and for Paul, Jesus wasn’t a real human being, he was a celestial god. It wasn’t until the Mark gospel 20 years after that, that Jesus became a human. Think about that – the first gospel (Matthew followed Mark chronologically) wasn’t written till 40 years after Jesus supposedly died and that gospel is a carefully crafted, literary masterpiece, not a collection of oral traditions. It was written as myth and then copied and embellished by the authors of Matthew and Luke who revised the portions they didn’t agree with. Not a word of the NT was written while Jesus was alive. How could you not know that? You go ask your priest if Jesus literally wrote any part of the bible and see what he says. I was assuming you knew a little about your religion – apparently I was wrong.
            .
            You said all we have to do is read the bible – tell me, have you read it? Cover to cover? Obviously you have not, if you believe Jesus wrote it. I have done so several times and I’ve studied the NT quite a bit, including reading it in chronological order rather than the order in which the books are presented. The story changes quite a bit when you read it in the correct, or more likely, order. You aren’t qualified to debate the bible with me unless you’ve read it at least once, and if that’s gibberish, then I suggest you take your own words to heart: … “And that my friend is all I need I need to say.”

          15. Maggie

            Patrick. You sir need to get a life and stop being a troll. Shame on you. I’ll pray for you.

          16. Virgil Flores

            John 3:18 “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

        2. Gene Tobola Reply

          Patrick, the host WAS tested by the Department of Forensic Medicine as the article states. NO miracle is ever approved without strenuous scientific verification.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Gene, where is this evidence? All the article says is that they discovered this human tissue in a host – it does not say how it got there. It does not say that any DNA testing was done, or that any criminal investigation was performed, or mention a continuous trail of evidence from the point it was mixed into batter, put into the oven and eventually dropped to the floor in 2013, then tested in 2014, and only at that time placed on a “corporal” – a piece of cloth, then reported two years later in 2016; following which, the story drops dead.
            .
            To be confirmed as a miracle, every single step of the way would need to be documented, and the article most certainly does not provide that, or even any indication that it was treated as one would treat a crime scene in order to prevent contamination of the evidence. The article refers to the “Department of Forensic Medicine” but it does not say which one of these departments is referred to, as there are such departments at several universities in Poland. We don’t know if this was a university department or a police department – no source for the testing involved in this “miracle” is provided, nor any real description of the tests and procedures employed. Instead it is worded in a very misleading way, to make it sound like it’s all been tested an investigated, when in fact, nothing at all is provided to confirm that this was actually the case. I tried repeatedly to find some indication on the web of which Dept. of Forensic Medicine did this testing, but could not find anything. This entire article, from whoever originated it, is junk journalism, and not a word of it can be taken as credible, given the lengths it went to avoid providing any real evidence at all.
            .
            Go check – there hasn’t been a single update to this case since it was first reported around April 20, without any documentation, evidence or explanation of the testing that allegedly took place. Do Bishops have the authority to declare a miracle? Why didn’t the Vatican confirm it? Why did the Church allow the story to die? Why are there no updates to this story if it was really a miracle? I suspect that a couple years from now, they will trot the story out again as one that was proven back in 2016, and if they do, that will be a lie.
            .
            To say that “NO miracle is ever approved without scientific verification” is complete and utter nonsense, given that most miracles have been approved before there even was a practice of science, not to mention the tools of science that would be required to prove that the laws of nature were actually violated. I’m really amazed at the participation this article received – as though people are grasping at straws for something, anything, no matter how slim and unlikely, to give them reason to support their beliefs, so they hang to garbage like this article by the slimmest thread of faith – which if we are being honest, is simply pretending to know things you don’t know.

          2. Ann Saunders

            Patrick once again all you have shown is that you have no faith. You think this is proof there is likely no God. You chosecaxside, and chose to indoctrinate yourself to that side. As for you judging God, you assume you know all that He does, saying any God who does this is evil. Well, you will be finding, at the end of your life, that God is the only good, not slightly like the Mafia, and that he’ll, or the waste dump in Jerusalem called Gehenna that was a pit that people and garbage and all manner of foul things were tossed into, cannot be gotten out of,is indeed an allegory, go give an understanding of what it will be like for those who choose to distance themselves from God instead of getting to know their creator. There is evidence in the very air we breathe that tells us this “evolution” of single celled life forms, who evolved into our fragile bodies somehow, came from somewhere other than earth, that evolution is intended for us go sdspt, but we cannot just jump into becoming anything new or original on our own. You say you are objective, but you really don’t sound like it. Try Guadalupe. Look into it, on the new reports from the scientific community. You may be ignorant enough even afterwards to say to some, “who painted it?” Like HRC, to the bishop who walked her through the site. I hope your heart becomes a little less hard in doing so. But that is up to you.

          3. Patrick Gannon

            “Patrick once again all you have shown is that you have no faith. ” Excellent. Thank you! I prefer not to pretend to know things I don’t know.
            .
            “You think this is proof there is likely no God. ” No, I don’t think I ever said that. I think that there is an extremely small possibility that there are gods or afterlives, given that we have no evidence to prove that there aren’t any; but that does not mean that I take my lack of faith as proof that there is no God. There is a lot more than my lack of faith to provide evidence that there is no god.
            .
            You suggest that I indoctrinated myself – but I was born, raised Catholic and I’ve read tons of material on both sides. My search began in earnest when I read the bible cover to cover a couple of times, and I’ve continued to read parts of it ever since. I know far more about Christianity than most Christians. Do you know that there were some gospels that didn’t make it into the bible, including some that suggested that Yahweh was actually Satan, and that Jesus battled him in a celestial realm to save us? Do you know that we don’t have a single scrap of original text for any of the bible? Who cares if it was inspired, if Yahweh-Jesus couldn’t even see to it that the original was saved, so we’d know what it really said before the scribes had their way with the old texts?
            .
            Genesis says in 3:22 that we, like the gods, know what good and evil are. We know that it is evil to send a mere mortal to trillions of years of eternal torment for failing to believe, say and do the right things (as directed by mere men dressed in robes), when we live here but a handful of decades. Hold a bic lighter under your arm till the skin smokes, blisters, hisses, spits, and flames up like a BBQ, then imagine that over your entire body… now imagine that over the body of your child because he or she fell away from their faith. You’re going to worship a being who would do that to your child? How could you ever be happy in heaven, knowing this was happening, and that you were powerless to stop it? Don’t give me crap about evil. I know evil when I see it. We all do. We need to stop lying about worshipping an evil god. Either the Church lied to us and the god is not evil, or the god is evil, or there is no god. Those are our choices.
            .
            As for miracles, please explain how something immaterial and outside space and time, affects the particles in our physical matter reality while evading all efforts of our scientists to confirm that any such affect is taking place. We know that if there were such forces, we’d know it by now.

        3. margaret Reply

          Patrick, you sound angry. You should do your research yourself and then come back and enlighten us all.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            I’m a recovering Catholic. Of course I’m angry. I was psychologically abused by the indoctrination of the Church when I was a child and it took decades to get over it.
            .
            I have done my research on this. I’ve searched everything I can think of to find sources for the organizations said to have tested this and exactly what those reports say. That information is not to be found – almost certainly because it doesn’t exist. What amazes me is that this particular post is the most popular of any post here that doesn’t have something to do with sex. There is a desperation for this to be true – for some sign from the Catholic god that all this stuff about Yahweh and Jesus is true – because deep down, we know it’s not. People are grasping for this thin straw of hope with a vengeance. The miracle of transubstantiation is not enough – Catholics want some real evidence. Unfortunately, this incident fails to provide any.

        4. Cheryl Huber Reply

          Hey Patrick, I figure I’ll toss in a few miracles for you. Have you ever seen the pictures of the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul. The Holy Father saw the Blessed Mother reach out and move the bullet.

          Miracles attributed to Mother Theresa of Calcutta had to be verified, and they happened in your lifetime. Cancer that just disappeared?

          My sister was pronounced dead, and a nun at the Catholic hospital poured holy water from Fatima on her, she woke. True story, but not verified by the Vatican. She was conceived on Easter and born on Christmas Day, coincidence?

          The greatest miracle of all, is the evolution of the universe which is still unfolding.

          Miracles happen every day. We could use many more and I pray you will see one in your lifetime; like Paul being knocked off of his horse and seeing the light.

          No doubt in my mind, God loves you, and is trying to bring you home. That’s why you’re on this site. Hang in there, a miracle is coming your way… if you look for the signs, they are always there, but to those with no faith, there are no signs. God will give you a sign if you look for it.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            No, I have never seen any objective evidence that the Pope saw the Blessed mother reach out and move the bullet. Why didn’t she just prevent it from being fired in the first place?
            .
            Miracles attributed to Mother Teresa have been debunked by Christopher Hitchens and others. She was no saint, in any sense of the word.
            .
            Yes cancers do spontaneously disappear – among the religious of any and all religions, as well as among non-believers. It happens with a certain statistical probability. What NEVER happens as a miracle, is an amputated limb being grown back. Visible miracles like that, never happen. Why not? Is Yahweh limited in what he can do, or does he just hate amputees?
            .
            Your personal story contains far too little information to even begin to be considered as a miracle. Try again. Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) was born as Halley’s comet came in, and died as it passed again. That was a coincidence. (Actually I’m kind of surprised that the Catholic Church with its manic obsession over sex wouldn’t have some kind of problem with your sister being conceived on Easter. Why weren’t your parents at church celebrating the resurrection of Jesus instead of banging away under the bedsheets! Given that Christmas is approximately 40 weeks after Easter, depending on the year, this is hardly coincidental. The probabilities are pretty high. It’s certainly not a miracle. Miracles by definition are rare events, and this would not be a rare event.
            .
            Whether the evolution of the universe is a miracle is yet to be determined. It appears to be a natural process. What evolution does do, however, is put a dagger right in the middle of the Catholic nonsense about “original sin.” We know from DNA evidence that there was never a two-person DNA bottleneck; we evolved from a pool of several thousand early humans, not two people – and without that – no fall from grace, no original sin. Eventually the Vatican will have to admit this, as they eventually had to admit that Galileo and Giordano Bruno, for example, were right, and they were wrong.
            .
            There is no biblical evidence for Paul being knocked off a horse. I’ve read the book. Even Catholic Answers says, “He more than likely did not. It is commonly assumed that Rabbi Saul was thrown from his horse on the road to Damascus. This assumption has been reinforced by several artistic depictions, including Caravaggio’s “Conversion on the Way to Damascus” and “Conversion of St. Paul” (1601). However, nowhere does the New Testament make mention of Saul being thrown from his horse. In fact, it doesn’t even make mention of Saul traveling by horse!”
            .
            Which god loves me? The one who will send me to eternal torment if I fail to believe, say and do what the RCC insists upon? What good god could send any human, who lives but a handful of decades, for any reason to eternal torment? There is no greater evil that can be conceived of. The RCC wants you to worship an evil god.

        5. Ann Saunders Reply

          Patrick,look into the tilma of Juan Diego, Guadalupe ,Mexico. I read an article that has scientists confirming that the “painting” was not done by human hands, and with no substances found on earth as the paint. I don’t have time to refund the article, but you say you are good at searching, so have at it. I admire the tenacity of your searching. I wonder if you do your searches with an open mind, if you have tried praying with the openess to God that you clearly don’t have. You want facts, look into Guadalupe to start. It is where Mary first appeared as an apparition. It is where she gave evidence on an old man’s tilma….the results from this last scientific study might surprise you, or they might tgeaten your faith that there really is no God. Sometimes you have to go further than the one article, and go to the Author to get the answers you want, if indeed you do want them. I tried finding a place to reply to your statements but none was provided. I’d be interested to see how you try to discredit Guadalupe. I don’t think you have the objective to get people to see they believe hoaxes, as you are only trying to sow doubt. For me, God has given me so many gifts of the tangible that I can’t reject them. But maybe you can “enlighten” me?! To me , I see you having doubt as a constant companion, and you at least flirt a lot with outright disbelief. Prove me wrong , please. 🙂

      3. Maria Reply

        For those who believe no explanation is needed while for those who don’t believe nothing is explainable.

      4. Grace Zadlo Reply

        God comes to those who have ears and eyes open

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Those who have their ears and eyes open will be asking for evidence.

          1. Diane Marie Kamer

            Y’all, Patrick is trolling. Pray for him, but do not waste precious time and energy arguing with him. He is impervious to reason.

          2. Patrick Gannon

            LOL. That’s hilarious. Reason calls for evidence. Reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. I have not seen anything here that offers a cause, explanation or justification for this event aside from what I myself have offered. Read the full thread below. The Bishop is pulling a fast one. He sent the first sample to the lab and it came back negative. He sent a second contaminated sample and it contained what he wanted it to contain but the lab that did the testing said it would never hold up in court. The red substance has a natural cause which has been documented in similar cases. There is no evidence that the Vatican recognizes this as a miracle. It is not I who is impervious to reason. Not by a long shot.

          3. Caroline

            Everyone please pray Patrick gets this evidence he so desperately needs. I sense his torture. Faith is a gift from God that can be given and taken away in an instant. Only God knows why He does anything. He is the Alfa and the Omega. Our human way of understanding is incapable of comprehending. “Blessed is he who believes and does not see”. God has not blessed you Patrick with faith for a reason and your ignorance in the power of God does not give you the right to try to take it from us that do not need proof of His miracles or His existence. You said you didn’t ask for help from those that tried to help you, well we BELIEVERS didn’t ask for your opinion of doubt. I reject your words from Satan and yes, I believe that if you reject God you will go straight to HELL, but then again in the end its up to God. I pray He has mercy on you.

          4. se

            Hi Patrick,

            The irony of your stance is that one must already possess some idea of God in order to deny His existence. Otherwise, it seems you are simply bloviating. So, what is your idea of God? Scientific logic demands that one must begin with a premise (or First Cause, which even Einstein admitted to).

          5. Liliana

            If you looking for another miracle that I have personally witnessed, go to Lebanon to a small village called Huntchara. The Eucharistic miracle has been happening for so many years.
            The Vatican would not call a miracle unless it is scientifically proven, therefore if a miracle is happening, Vatican ask priest not to make it publicly while studying the case. In the case of the above mentioned place in Lebanon, priest was moved to different locations, but the miracle continued happening wherever he was sent. People come and witness it from lots of places around the Middle East, even Muslims I have seen over there. Healings had happened and are happening.
            I believe that for anyone interested on such cases and being skeptic about them, they should look by their own eyes where do they happen. It is difficult to convince people of such events: personally, I will advice them to go and see for themselves.
            I believe that talking in a disrespectful way of something so holy it is bad. Because unless you have witnessed it you can feel the real presence in such places. But to talk about in a disrespectful way about something you have never witnessed it is certainly not good, specially when we talk about God, Jesus Christ, etc.

          6. Patrick Gannon

            Would it be “disrespectful” for the Bishop to have declared a “miracle” when there was no such evidence and the effects described are already scientifically understood? The Vatican never chimed in on this “miracle.” They are having difficulty with miracles now that they have allowed science into the process, because there are no such things as miracles. Immaterial substances cannot affect the material particles in our natural world. We know this beyond any reasonable doubt at this point. Take some science classes…

          7. Liliana

            Dear Patrick, I am a doctor. No need to give here scientific explanations. But as a doctor I can tell you that the power of God goes far away more than any science.
            I have been a witness of a family miracle, a healing. And some other stories.
            I am a witness and a doctor and a true believer in the existence of God even in our time.
            Thank you.

          8. Patrick Gannon

            Thank you Liliana, but being a doctor, does not mean you are scientific. Many doctors endure enough science to get their degree, and that’s about it. We had Ben Carson, who was, by all accounts, an amazing doctor, but he has no use whatsoever for any science that does not support his religious views. Expanding on scientific concepts you may understand might still be useful for others. In my experience, most people are woefully illiterate when it comes to science.
            .
            As a doctor, surely you know about spontaneous remissions. Sometimes it just happens. Because we don’t always understand why something happens, does not mean “God did it.” That’s a cop out. That’s a cowardly response that prevents us from searching deeply to find out the real reason behind it. If we accepted, “because God did it” the sun would still be going around the earth, and the Church would still be burning people at the stake – like Bruno Giordano for whose death they have never apologized.
            .
            I’m willing to believe in magical soul, consciousness, god forces – but they don’t do anything in our natural world or we would know it by now. If they exist, they are moot. With the confirmation of the Higgs field in 2012, the Standard Model or core theory of physics left us quite confident that if such forces exist, they play no role in our world – or we would know it. Tell me how a soul force can break the strong nuclear force that binds atoms together – as it would need to do in order for tissue to heal – without us being aware of it; given that we are aware of much weaker forces. Quantum field theory tells us we can know these forces don’t exist – or don’t have any impact here, if they do – with an exceptionally high degree of confidence. While we might not be able to observe these magical forces, if they existed, we would observe what they do to the particles in your patients in order to generate new tissue, or whatever the case may be. We have all sorts of evidence for this – in some regard, every single physics experiment that has ever been run. Your god has what, exactly in the way of compelling, objective evidence?
            .
            Note that one thing your god absolutely cannot do is to heal an amputee, can he? Either he’s not all-powerful or the OT laws are still in effect and disabled people are to be shunned, confirming that your God must hate amputees! How else do you explain this? As a doctor, how many amputees have you seen grow back a limb?
            .
            If I am to believe in your god, then I have to believe and accept that your god arbitrarily chose to execute a miracle for a small, random sampling of people, while meanwhile thousands of children are dying of disease and starvation because the Catholic Church insisted that the mothers have children they couldn’t take care of under penalty of eternal torment if they used contraception. Also these “miracles” occur to all sorts of patients in all sorts of countries who worship all sorts of gods in all sorts of religions, which seems to indicate that your god doesn’t really care what god you worship. He’s an equal-opportunity spontaneous remission god.
            .
            Why did your god take so much time out of his busy day to heal your patient, one patient, while so many small children died that day and every day, one after the other….. What makes the healed patients any better than those who don’t get miracles? There don’t seem to be any outstanding characteristics. If your god healed your patients, who made them ill in the first place? If he’s intruding to heal, how are we to know he didn’t make them sick in the first place? If he can manipulate the particles in our natural world in order to heal, then he can certainly do so to make us sick, and thus we must assume any time we get sick or any time something bad happens, that your god intended it and made it happen – and that makes him a pretty distasteful character, doesn’t it? After all the bible paints the picture of a god who pulls puppet strings – hardening the heart of Pharaoh and causing people to do various things against their will. That doesn’t play well with the concept of free will, does it?
            .
            If you are a doctor, then you know that there are microorganisms that cause this red stuff in hosts that fall on the ground, and that this phenomenon has been seen a number of times before and been confirmed as such. Elsewhere in this thread, I provided sources. Why then are you supporting a trumped up miracle that is clearly a fraud?

          9. Liliana

            Too much to discuss, Patrick.
            I just hope that one day your heart will open to God and find the answers you are looking for.

          10. Patrick Gannon

            So pick one topic… The questions I have are not for your god, but for those of you who believe in him. No matter how open my heart is, do you think Yahweh-Jesus is going to explain to me how an immaterial force can act on the material particles in our natural world?

          11. Liliana

            I have no time to continue discussing the same topic. Good luck in your search.

          12. Patrick Gannon

            se, I possess an idea of a unicorn, so I can deny its existence. So what? The “idea of God” that you refer to is very well demonstrated and illustrated in the bible. That is supposed to be his Holy Book, right? It does tell us about the existence of this god, right? Therefore my “idea of God” must, like your own, come out of that book. Have you read that entire book?
            .
            Or is the book wrong? Is the book immaterial to the character and description of your god? Should we discard all those books as not providing the “idea of God” that you refer to? What other “idea of God” should I have in mind? The Islamic “idea of God?” The Hindu “idea of God(s)?” Just what other “idea of God” am I supposed to have?
            .
            If we insist that everything must have a first cause – what was the cause of your god? I heard a prominent scientist recently predict that within 50 years, we’ll have a good theory with supporting evidence to explain how the universe as we know it, started… the universe itself may have always existed and then underwent a phase transition like water to ice. While I won’t be around that long, I think we should wait, and stop assigning things to gods, things that we don’t yet understand.
            .
            The problem, to mention it again, is that the book provides the “idea of God” through five pillars, and each has been debunked. We know there was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck (Adam and Eve), no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan. These things are the the places in the “Holy Book” from which the “idea of God” is derived – and they have washed away; so what remains of your “idea of God” without these pillars?

      5. Fred Reply

        Hey I am a protestant Christian and I’m going to agree with Patrick on this. I won’t say miracles don’t happen, even though I’ve never seen one that could be comparable to those in the Bible but I think Catholics should stop looking for bloody eucharists and weeping statues and think about what Christ himself said. “A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign”

      6. MaryAgnes Doumin Reply

        Patrick, Not only totally disgusting and disrespectful! No faith no eternal life! Enjoy your life on Earth in this corrupt world of Satan!

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          MaryAgnes, as usual the Christian threat of eternal torment… It does get old. It’s like every Christian thinks I’m learning about Hell and eternal torment for not believing what they do, for the very first time! So many of you are so scared. You were raised and indoctrinated to be afraid of an evil god. And they told you he was good. I know. I was there. OK, so which of the four Hell’s am I going to? You do know there are four, right? You do know that the Church translated four different words to the pagan word “Hell.” You don’t believe me – look it up. Ask your priest what four words were translated to the pagan word Hell and ask him what each of those words originally meant, and then fact-check him and look it up yourself. Then come back and tell me which of the four Hell’s I am going to. (I know the answer, but want to see if you can figure it out). Then read the bible and tell me how many innocent people Yahweh kills and how many Satan kills. Get back to me on that one too. Did you know that there are early Christian texts that did not make it into the official canon, (and were largely destroyed by the proto-orthodox who won the literary battles), that define Yahweh as an evil god that a celestial Jesus was to save us from? Fortunately a few of these texts have been uncovered at Nag Hammadi and the Dead Sea Scrolls, and various libraries… The story previously unknown sects of Judaism as well as those of early Christianity is a very interesting one, and not one that the Church tells its sheeple. What do you know about Marcionites, or Ebionites, or Theodocians or Gnostics – all of them were early Christians. If one of them had won, instead of the proto-orthodox, you might worship two gods, no gods, many gods, etc. When Rome empowered the proto-orthodox, the battle was over and history decided; but it could have gone another way.
          .
          First consider that this host thing was not a miracle. If you search throughout this thread, you’ll find that I posted an article offering a scientific explanation for this so-called “miracle.” The first sample (real sample) was sent to a lab who found nothing unusual about it. The second sample was not a real sample, it was a paraffin (wax) block handled by many people that included traces of the original sample along with a lot of contamination from handling. The researchers said the results would be of little value in a court case. The local Bishop called it a miracle anyway, knowing it would bring the foolish ignorant sheep and their money. The source of the red mark is a known and understood bacteria; and this “miracle” has happened before as a result of perfectly normal natural causes.
          .
          What is disgusting and disrespectful is the way the clergy who perpetrated this fraud treated believers, playing you for fools, and knowing that many would flock in to see the miracle and leave their money along the way. What’s disgusting and disrespectful is that this all seems to be a lie. No evidence has been formally presented. The Vatican has made no official statement that this is a miracle based on the research of many who have tried to confirm the articles that have said this. What’s disrespectful and disgusting, is to hand over your will and your trust, to an organization that lies to you, and insists that you should worship an evil god.
          .
          Why is he evil? Because sending a mere human who lives here but a handful of decades to trillions of years of eternal torment is a disproportionate justice that surpasses all lesser definitions of evil. Yahweh gives the idea of “cruel and unusual punishment” an entirely new meaning. We’re far more civilized than h. We know what evil is (see Gen 3:22). The gods knew from that point on, that we would be able to see that some of them (notably Yahweh) are evil; and his book details much of his evil. Yahweh condones or commands slavery, racism, sexism, genocide, homophobia, discrimination against the disabled, murder of innocents, it goes on and on. Then we learn that Jesus is God = Yahweh is God = Jesus is Yahweh, which means Jesus did all this, then he came for a visit in his Jesus persona and hypocritically preached about love, peace and justice. Why hypocritically? Because he decided instead of destroying us if we didn’t live up to his expectations, as was his plan in his Yahweh persona, instead he would send us to eternal torment, thereby doubling down on his previous acts of evil, which are pathetic by comparison with the concept of eternal torment – particularly when you send those complete innocents who commit the heinous crime of failing to be baptized before dying (abortions, miscarriages, stillborns) to Hell, which is the default place for them in the catechism. You’re allowed to hope Yahweh isn’t a monster, but it’s just hope. By default, Yahweh/Jesus, the Catholic god sends them to Hell. And you want me to worship this god?
          .
          Now this all sounds pretty unusual to you, I’m guessing. But if you tear apart the RCC’s teaching, this is what is going on. Their god is an evil god, the most evil being ever invented, but they tell you he’s good, that he and the RCC command you to love and worship him, or else. Who among us has to command our children to love us? Who among us would impregnate a woman or allow ourselves to become pregnant if we knew that when the baby was born it would grow up and be thrown into a fire that would in unimaginable agony, consume the skin while replenishing from below (that’s what they told me), for trillions and trillions of eternal years. Hold a lighter under your arm till the skin smokes and spits and sizzles, then imagine that over the entire body of your child, and tell me if you would allow that child to be born if you knew that would happen to it. If so, you’re as evil as Yahweh. If being told that this evil god is good, is not guaranteed to mess up generation after generation of otherwise sane people, I don’t know what else could.

      7. Thomaspj Poovathinkal SSP Reply

        TRY and visit any of the BRANCHES of THE DIVINE Retreat Centre in different parts of the World and see whether you remain the same. A healthy curiosity is a MUST.

        SOME ADDRESSES of the Branches of THE DIVINE Retreat Centre :

        (****** FOR Telephone Nos. and the E-mail addresses Please go to GOOGLE and search.)

        DivinePrayer Centre, 426, Route 57 West, Washington, NJ 07882, USA. 30 Alvin SlovanAve., Washington Township, NJ 07882-4173, USA.

        DivineRetreat Centre, St. Augustine Abbey, St. Augustine’s Road, Ramsgate, CT119PA,Kent, UK.

        DivineRetreat Centre, P.O. Box 6327, West Gosford 2250, NSW, Australia.

        VincentianHouse, Divine Mercy Prayer House, 2905 S Frontage Road, Plant City, FL 33566,USA.

        DivineRetreat Centre, Vincentian Prayer Centre, 69 William Street, Toronto, ON, M9N2G6, Canada.

        ExerzitienzentrumDer Gottlichen Barmherzigkeit, St. Clemens Kirche, Stresemann Str. 66 a, 10963,Berlin, Germany.

        Director, Prayer Centre, Vincentian Fathers, Centenary Vincentian House, P.O. Box No. 200, Entebbe, Uganda, East Africa.

        Director, Vincentian Prayer House, Buoye, Kisumu, Kenya, East Africa

        Director, Vincentian Fathers, Divine Mercy Renewal Centre, Kabulassoke, P.B.No. 613, Masaka, Uganda, East Africa.

        ( NOTE :St. Luke : 7, 29 and the following: “All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. BUT THE PHARISEES AND THE EXPERTS in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.” – MANY CHRISTIAN GROUPS AND CHURCHES move in this above-said spirit, and so the WORLD remains UNEVANGELISED.)

        Vincentian Fathers, P.O. Box 25158, 00603, Lavington, Nairobi, Kenya, East Africa.

        Vincentian Prayer House, Vincentian Fathers, P.O. Box 25158, 00603, Lavington, Nairobi, Kenya, East Africa.

        Director, Vincentian Retreat Centre, Nzangi, P.B. No. 23, Kyengera, Kampala, Uganda, East Africa

        Vincentian Retreat Centre (VRC) Vincentian Fathers, P.O. Box No.2009-01000, Thika, Nairobi Thika Highway, Kenya, East Africa.

      8. Thomaspj Poovathinkal SSP Reply

        Try at least a healthy CURIOSITY VISIT to any of these Retreat Centres, Please. You may SEE JESUS THE LORD ALIVE :

        SOME ADDRESSES of the Branches of THE DIVINE Retreat Centre :
        (FOR Telephone Nos. and the E-mail addresses Please go to GOOGLE and search.)

        DivinePrayer Centre, 426, Route 57 West, Washington, NJ 07882, USA. 30 Alvin SlovanAve., Washington Township, NJ 07882-4173, USA.

        DivineRetreat Centre, St. Augustine Abbey, St. Augustine’s Road, Ramsgate, CT119PA,Kent, UK.

        DivineRetreat Centre, P.O. Box 6327, West Gosford 2250, NSW, Australia.

        VincentianHouse, Divine Mercy Prayer House, 2905 S Frontage Road, Plant City, FL 33566,USA.

        DivineRetreat Centre, Vincentian Prayer Centre, 69 William Street, Toronto, ON, M9N2G6, Canada.

        ExerzitienzentrumDer Gottlichen Barmherzigkeit, St. Clemens Kirche, Stresemann Str. 66 a, 10963,Berlin, Germany.

        Director, Prayer Centre, Vincentian Fathers, Centenary Vincentian House, P.O. Box No. 200, Entebbe, Uganda, East Africa.

        Director, Vincentian Prayer House, Buoye, Kisumu, Kenya, East Africa

        Director, Vincentian Fathers, Divine Mercy Renewal Centre, Kabulassoke, P.B.No. 613, Masaka, Uganda, East Africa.

        ( NOTE :St. Luke : 7, 29 and the following: “All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. BUT THE PHARISEES AND THE EXPERTS in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.” – MANY CHRISTIAN GROUPS AND CHURCHES move in this above-said spirit, and so the WORLD remains UNEVANGELISED.)

        Vincentian Fathers, P.O. Box 25158, 00603, Lavington, Nairobi, Kenya, East Africa.

        Vincentian Prayer House, Vincentian Fathers, P.O. Box 25158, 00603, Lavington, Nairobi, Kenya, East Africa.

        Director, Vincentian Retreat Centre, Nzangi, P.B. No. 23, Kyengera, Kampala, Uganda, East Africa

        Vincentian Retreat Centre (VRC) Vincentian Fathers, P.O. Box No.2009-01000, Thika, Nairobi Thika Highway, Kenya, East Africa.

      9. Angela Gardner Reply

        Mr Gannon, it is fine that you do not believe that is your misfortune but please a little respect. You be glad that you did when you get to meet him….Why would a man suffer as he did to spread the word of love. to show people how to live for their sake. to give them somewhere to go in their hearts when they are lost. Do not mock because you have not experienced God. Just open your heart he loves you!!

      10. Marcella Reply

        God forgive you and reveal himself to you…

    2. Maria Reply

      OMG! What d heck is wrong with u?! It clearly shows that you’re not Catholic! So, please shut your mouth!

      1. Roger Reply

        I am not Catholic, but I do believe Christ is with us, we just have to seek him , my question is why is meant in the article by the quote I hope that this will serve to deepen the cult of the Eucharist.

        1. Jerry Ariesga Reply

          It is simply a metaphor brother by the bishop, “thr cult” he referred to means the Follower of the Eucharist the Follower of Christ

      2. will Reply

        regardless of what we believe, its wrong to silence others who disagree. That’s just plain wrong. Let him speak.

        1. Cookie Reply

          Patrick, I never though that a person that said He is born Again does not have faith, please read John 6-51-55, may the Holy Spirit guide you through the truth, please do not insult The Body of Christ, faith is given to us as a gift. You can believe it or refuse His present. I invite you to go to any Catholic Church and be silent in His present. Special at the Holy Mass. Lord Jesus Son Of God have mercy on the believer a sinner.

    3. annie Reply

      if you don’t believe then don’t bbelieve! you’re so idiot! if you never understand the meaning of the HOLY EUCHARIST THEN YOU BETTER SHUT UP YOUR MOUTH!!!!

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        My goodness, Annie. That’s not very Christian behavior (or is it?). I guess I’m fortunate that the Church isn’t allowed to burn people at the stake any longer.

        1. Annette Reply

          Satan get behind me.

      2. Jude Russell Reply

        Annie, I am a fervent, practicing Catholic and I am over-joyed with this new Eucharistic Miracle in Poland. But I am frustrated that your critique of Patrick is nothing more than anger expressed through sentences which completely lack any grammatical format. Further, you completely ignore Christ’s command of Charity in your reply to Patrick. This is not the way in which there is going to be hope in changing the hearts of people for Christ; contrarily, this is why many people are turned away. Lack of proper and charitable communication truly hinders evangelization. Please considering being more Christ-like in your replies. God bless you.

        1. judith77 Reply

          I have the same sentiments, Jude Russell. Thank you for pointing it out. It should be clarified to Patrick Gannon that, of course, all the above mentioned cautions were obtained prior to declaring the Eucharist Miracle. That is the precise reason for the delay in declaring it.

      3. Aloysius Reply

        My Dear it is wrong and a sin to start insulting. What is their is just simple, pray that He(they) may believe and. Also encounter the Holy Eucharist. Always pray for others, mainly people that do no understand that God will open their hearts and eye to understand His glory and mystery

    4. McKenzie Reply

      Patrick, I am saddened by the responses you’ve been getting from Catholics here. I haven’t read through all the replies, but it seems that respectful arguments are few and far between. I can only assume it was a lack of willingness to engage in rational thought about theology that caused you to leave the Church to begin with. Reason and faith are both necessary for Christians and are two different but complementary means in which humans seek truth. Faith simply means taking the word of another for something that you can’t empirically verify yourself (e.g. trusting your friend when they tell you a story about what happened last week). You have to have a certain relationship with/confidence in that person in order to take what they say on faith. Capital F “Faith” is taking God at His word. I can’t give you the experience you would need to trust God and form a relationship with Him like that, but can only pray that He would give you evidence of His trustworthiness Himself. On the other hand, reason is absolutely essential, and matters of faith go beyond reason but never contradict it. Thus, I think you are certainly right to ask whether such investigations have taken place. Only after such alternate explanations have been (to a reasonable extent) exhausted can the Church declare that a miracle has indeed occurred.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Thank you McKenzie, and I’m pleased that there are some decent people responding. I learned some time ago, that when you question people’s beliefs you’d better have a thick hide. I can’t tell you how many Christians suggest I’m going to Hell! However I must point out that I disagree with your definition of faith. You suggest that trusting a friend is based on faith, but it’s not. It’s based on empirical, objective knowledge of the person, how they act, how they have acted in the past. Trusting a complete stranger might be faith, but not trusting a friend; and even the complete stranger can be given a quick once-over to attempt to learn enough real information to justify any trust that is given. This is observational and experiential evidence that has value in deciding whether to trust someone. We don’t have any of that for gods or afterlives.
        |
        You speak of “experiences” one needs to trust God, and I’ve experienced a handful of such experiences, but there is nothing to indicate that these experiences weren’t simply electrochemical reactions taking place in my brain, particularly since they tend to occur in unusual circumstances or times of heightened emotions.
        |
        I do appreciate that you agree common sense, i.e. investigation before announcement is essential in such matters.

        1. Adas Reply

          Either you believe in God or you don’t. How’s that?

          1. Patrick Gannon

            I don’t think it’s that simple – at least not for an agnostic. I lack evidence for the existence of gods or afterlives, but that doesn’t mean that no god or gods exist; only that there is no evidence for them. Faith is just pretending to know something you don’t know, and I don’t see how that can be cognitively healthy for us, so it makes sense to live our lives with “hope” for such things if they give us comfort, but not to have “faith” in them and act as though they really are real.

          2. Scott

            Patrick Gannon, we get it that you are an agnostic. But putting aside the discussion of miracles, I am confused as to why you come on this board to discuss your agnostic dis-belief in God. Are you hoping someone will give you some insight so you can believe? Do you believe you can convince believers that their beliefs are flawed? Do you believe sincerely held beliefs of God are a threat to you somehow? Are you upset at the Catholic Church only or upset at all Christians? Do you believe all religions are deceptive or is this directed at the Catholic faith only? I am truly confused as to your motivation.

            Do you have religion and belief in God confused? Maybe your confusion is that you were forced to believe in a religion before you were introduced to the idea of God. Because religion and belief in God are two different things.

            There is ample evidence of the existence of God. But some people simple chose to call God something else. Physics, natural laws, mathematics, all are immutable laws that you recognize and would not exist without being “created”.

            Also remember scientific evidence also includes the effects of unseen forces on its surroundings. (Black holes, dark matter, etc.)

            Good luck in your search. I believe you want to believe in God. But that is a completely different issue than which religion you belong to.

          3. Patrick Gannon

            Scott, I’m not sure my motives matter or are pertinent to the discussion. If I am asking challenging questions, and raising pertinent points, why I choose to do so is of little consequence with regard to those observations, questions and challenges.
            .
            However, I desperately wish that in my younger days I’d had the chance to participate in blogs such as this and to see a) that it’s OK to question authority – something that was highly discouraged in my younger days, and b) to see all the questions there are about various religious beliefs. I often wondered if other people had the same questions I did, and learned eventually that they did – and much more.
            .
            I question not only religion, but really, all beliefs. This isn’t the only place I hang out. I have a bunch of New Agers really annoyed with me, for example. I think beliefs are bad for us. We believe things we don’t know, because if we knew them, we wouldn’t have to believe them. Our brains know that there is no objective evidence for gods or afterlives, or [enter any unproven belief here], and yet we tell our brains to believe anyway. We lie to ourselves. I can’t help think that this creates small internal cognitive conflicts, and these build up in us individually and as a society, and perhaps result in agitation and angst that brings us to kick the dog or fly airplanes into buildings. The more we learn that is based on objective evidence (no six day creation, no two person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt, no conquest of Canaan), the more cognitive conflict that is created inside our brains as we deny, deny, deny objective evidence with our unsupported beliefs. I don’t think that’s mentally healthy for us. So my issue is not specifically with gods or religions, but really with any beliefs. Religious beliefs in particular have been so harmful and so wrong, over the centuries, that they deserve special attention. There may be gods and afterlives. The point is we don’t know, so why do we lie to ourselves and tell our brains to believe something that the brain has no evidence for? How can that be good for us? How can lying to ourselves be healthy?
            .
            You say there is ample evidence for the existence of God (by which I assume you mean Yahweh, the god of the bible). I am aware of no objective evidence. Show me the evidence for Yahweh. Show me a burning bush. I would question whether physics, natural laws, mathematics etc. were created, or whether they evolved, as we did. Yes, you are absolutely correct that scientific evidence includes the effects of unseen forces on its surroundings. That is objective evidence. While we can’t see the force, we can objectively and empirically see and measure its effects. One day we will be able to map every single neuron in the human brain. At that time we will be able to determine whether our brains work in complete accordance with the space/time laws of our physical matter reality, or not. If they do – there’s no outside consciousness, no soul, or if there is, it’s completely moot as the force has no effect on us. If the brain does not always work in accordance with our physical laws, and indeed there is some other force, we will be able to identify it by observing and measuring its effects on neurons, and (like the examples you cite), it will no longer be a supernatural force. Given that we don’t know these things, believing in them is just lying to ourselves, so why don’t we exercise patience and work towards learning the truth?

            I hope this helps answer some of your questions.

    5. John Smith Reply

      Precisely.

      1. John Phillip Kudia Reply

        If mankind has a faculty for belief perhaps it was the creator who gave us that faculty? and if what is real expands and makes the human person more complete then faith is a real good thing.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          We’ve been indoctrinated to believe that faith is a good thing – but is it really? Faith is pretending to know things we don’t know. If we need to believe something, it’s because we don’t know it – we have no evidence for it. If we had evidence we wouldn’t need to believe it, we wouldn’t need to have faith, we wouldn’t need to pretend that we know things we don’t know, we wouldn’t have to lie to ourselves. Our brains know what we have evidence for, what we know and what we don’t know. When we lie to ourselves and tell our brains we believe things for which the brain has no evidence, then, I think we are creating an internal cognitive conflict, and this cannot be good for our mental health. Indeed if one looks around to where beliefs and faith are the strongest, one tends to find the most discord, hate, discrimination, prejudice and violence.

    6. Tricia Reply

      Patrick- what about the evidence that the blood is not from postmortem? They can tell by the protein percentage. No DNA test necessary…God is not dead.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        How can a being that exists outside of space and time have any material substance whatsoever?
        |
        I keep checking to see if there are any updates to the story, but I don’t see anything yet. As best I can tell, no serious investigation took place. It seems that this was declared a miracle by locals in Poland, but I don’t see anything to confirm that the Vatican has called it a miracle, which if correct, would be a smart move on their part.
        |
        What we know is that some unknown source has declared that tests were done to prove this is strained human heart tissue, but unless I missed it, there isn’t a shred of source material to tell us who did these tests or anything about them. I would not accept communion in that Church till this was fully investigated! I’d be more impressed with transubstantiation if the host “glowed” or shined with a stunning brilliant light, or something other-worldly. Human tissue in a host – well the starting point is that it’s got to be fraudulent or criminal, or both.
        |
        I’m absolutely amazed at the number of responses to this post. Of all the things that have been discussed on this forum, few have exceeded this level of interest and participation, Are people so desperate for some kind of evidence, no matter how slim, unreasonable and unlikely, in order to prop up their faith?

    7. Bill Patulski Reply

      I’m quite impressed by your obviously abundant education on this subject. I’m so glad that agnosticism is being properly represented on this page. You have a great mind and even greater resolve, my friend. Thanks for being a rational thinker and a respectable person.

    8. Delores Reply

      I must admire each of u for ur intense research & in depth response.. I’m more the person of just basic prayers & trust to a being that I can’t see but have travel extensively into the world of just plain trust in His care for myself & family. I’ve been to the point of not knowing what will happen to me & my children….when one has been brought to the point that God is the only hope left and u seek Him w/ur whole heart….He is faithful & was faithful to me. I can’t list nor have the verbiage to debate His answering so many of my prayers…. there is really no explanation but I don’t need to read all kinds of books all I did was believe that God created the universe and He is real today… That’s all I needed was to step out in faith & accepting His love & putting my trust in His Saving grace.
      So simple for me. I do pray for individuals that r having a hard time in accepting Him as our supreme being. That’s ok w/me because I go back to King David, Moses & Paul all were siners but were used mighty by God. In Gods time He will reach each & everyone. It’s up to each of us if we accept His love…I am a convert to the catholic faith…I love my catholic faith and do believe in the body & blood of Christ in the eucharist …I’m ok in all test that need to be made, in all the debates and in all the questions to be asked…He will prove all that needs to be proven. PLEASE DONT respond to my comment for I’m just a person of deep faith in a living God…

    9. Stella Mitchell Reply

      I Believe the host showing blood stains something bad will happen to the world

    10. Samuel Herbert Reply

      Hhahahahaha PaTrick you made my day 😀

    11. Jacqueline Reply

      Praying for you Patrick – it’s obvious that you are in need of it to be so angry about this post. Most would ignore it – God Bless you – Jesus’ Devine Mercy be with you. My heart breaks for you. I’m sorry others have posted cruel comments – it’s best to just pray for you Patrick Gannon – please update us from time to time as we continue to pray.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        I will place faith in prayer after an amputee successfully prays to have his or her limb restored. Yahweh is very limited in what he can accomplish when prayed to. Why waste time praying for me, when there are children starving to death and dying of disease because their mother was forced to have children she could not afford under penalty of eternal torment if she used contraception. Pray for the kids that your Church condemns to misery because of its manic obsession with all thing sexual.
        .
        As a recovering Catholic, I have plenty of right to be angry with the Catholic Church.

    12. Faymarie Reply

      You must have some interest to have actually read the article. If you choose not to believe that is your choice. To actually pen your mockery on a site that is for Christians is disrespectful at best. Please place your opinion on sites that have similar like minded people. Your mockery of our beliefs is not welcome here.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Deal with it. I had to deal with Catholic indoctrination as a kid.

    13. Mathew Reply

      @Patrick Gannon, I wish you talk only within the limits of your knowledge.

    14. Ademar Reply

      Hey Patrick,

      A friend of mine ran across your thread here last night and read me a number of your comments.

      I’m a once-a-thread post-er who doesn’t go back to look at responses to my comments,
      so I’ll leave you with a few things to chew on. If you’re an honest seeker for the truth,
      they’ll help you. If you’re simply a troll that wants to be contrary, it’d be a waste of time
      to “discuss” things with you.

      I’ll only touch on two broad things that you brought up.

      1.) Being an agnostic.

      — Reality exists whether we acknowledge it as such or not. It’s not a mental construct projected by our minds.
      (If you doubt that, you soon won’t when the wind blows sand into your eyes or explosive diarrhea strikes before you can get your pants off.)
      — Reality is ordered.
      — That order means that there is an Orderer: God.
      — God has to be greater than anything He created because otherwise He’s subordinate to it and thus not God.
      — Plants are greater than rocks, animals are greater than plants, and persons (us humans) are greater than animals. So
      God has to be at least a person.
      — Persons by nature relate, so God has to be more than one person, otherwise He’d be dependent on a creature for relationship and thus not God.
      So God has to be at least two persons.
      — Persons love. And love produces something or even someone.
      (Ya, I know there are lots of jerks, etc. out there — that doesn’t change the fact that when a person is not a jerk, they love.
      The very act of identifying a person as a jerk already presupposes that we assume there is a person who is truly being what a person should be.)
      — So God is more than one person, but also more than two, because being absolutely perfect, the love between the first two aforementioned persons
      gives rise to a a third person.
      — Since God is personal, He can relate to us. Since He’s perfect, His relationship with us — from His end — is only love (more in point 2 below).
      — Hence, God’s very existence, His being a Trinity, and His loving us is something that is reasonable to us.

      2.) Folks being in hell for billions of years/eternity for a short act they committed in their short earthly lives.

      — Persons by nature have free will — they can choose to act in a way in harmony with or contrary to reality.
      — Because God is the author of reality, choosing to act in a way contrary to reality will cause harm to the person and their environs,
      but their relationship with Him is affected only if the person is knowingly choosing the bad.
      — A person knowingly choosing the bad will find God to some degree revolting, very much so if the bad act is particularly bad. After all,
      if they don’t like the good enough to choose it, they’re not going to like the author of the good either.
      — So, when they finally see Him after death, those that knowingly chose the bad find God absolutely obnoxious,
      and it is very unpleasant for them to be near Him.
      — Sooo, He permits them to flee his revolting presence to a far distant place called hell. The damned are actually less miserable in
      hell than they would be in Heaven with God, and, yes, they are there because they have chosen the bad freely.

      To wrap up: A couple of things I need to suggest you because I’m a teacher of many years:
      a.) Think clearly. (otherwise it’s easy to miss the obvious)
      b.) Substantiate the many claims you make. (makes for more fruitful discussion)

      If I don’t bump into you here in this life, I’ll see you in eternity!

    15. Agboola Reply

      Patrick it is so obvious that you are an unrepentant atheist, if u die in this state u will rot in hell, this is a site for catholics who are proud of their faith and ready to acknowledge that fact not foolish satanic beings like you who are looking to recruit members into your satanic cult. Go and get a life and stop all this rubbish.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Which Hell am I going to? You know there are four of them, right?

    16. Leo Pius Reply

      Hello there Patrick Gannon, I must congratulate you for the much information you seem to possess together with your Agnosticism salaam. I must say that the Salutation is new, however the notion is not, and being able to goggle the meaning of it, beats me for how come I just come to learn of it now.

      But then I remember in this life we get to learn new things all the time until we left it or unless we ‘decide not’ to learn as we are ought to from time to time, don’t you agree?

      Anyhow I read most of your post and admired your stated understanding especially how you seem to be referencing yourself to the Holy Bible by questioned; 1. Abrahamic gods been washed away, 2. the six day creation, 3. the two-person DNA bottleneck, 4. the global flood even 5. the mass Exodus from Egypt and 6. the conquest of Canaan.

      Now wonder whether you may have consider the fact that this concern Holy Bible only comes about because of the god you wish to ‘reason out with science -evidencing an objective notion’ had gone a great deal with His incarnation into this world simply because he wishes to reveal himself to his people – yes, HIS people, including you and me now a days, through His Son.

      I commend the concern brethren whom tried to shed some light into you yet you seem to have every angle they took covered with your quest ‘to objectively prove that the concern incidence together with other shared phenomena are genuine’ -but you see Patrick such genuine/Truth can only be seen if you had a bit of FAITH within yourself. Something that I see you are missing big time, just like Apostle Thomas!

      Yes that Apostle Thomas with an account mention in the Holy Bible and how Jesus Christ corrected his limited FAITH as recorded by John in his Gospel that is within the Holy Bible -chapter 20:24-29. Specifically; -,,25. So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nail marks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”… 29. Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? r Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”

      Or does it mean that you already ‘decided not to cross that path’ simply because your reasoning on that ‘two-person DNA bottleneck’ notion of yours limits you from doing so? If so then I must revised my commendation above and wish to remind you of that ‘brainless professor’ his student refers to after their lengthy discussion on his “Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol notion”.

      With much hope that you can reason some sense into yourself and try and see things pass that medium size nose of yours and realise how our friend Stephen had free himself from his previous Atheism salaam and come home to our Father -God’s Mystical Body, on earth which is Catholicism.

    17. Carol Ormandy Reply

      ok Patrick you have made your point but you will never ever change our minds about our Lord. It is you yourself that is desperately seeking answers not us, we know and deep down so do you

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Keep reading, Carol. A reasonable explanation for this so-called “miracle” will be found deep in the thread below…
        .
        As for changing minds – it happens every day, just as it did for me. The “Nones” in the US are growing at the expense of Catholics and evangelicals. Catholics are changing their minds every day, as the Church fights over whether divorced people should be allowed to take communion, or whether they will take their kids out of the Church altogether, and as we learn from scientific research that the very foundation for the religion has been eroded beyond repair. There was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan, and without these things, there is no Yahweh, and without Yahweh there is no need for Jesus to save us from him(self).

    18. Joe G. Reply

      Patrick? I suppose you don’t or can’t possibly believe in the Big Bang Theory either right?

      According to your words: “It’s completely unprovable from a scientific perspective because there is no clear trail of evidence. There’s no way to prove what really happened 1300 years ago”….wouldn’t that be the case for this so called “theory” of the creation of the universe. ? Hmm…..

      What say you?

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Good heavens no! I don’t “believe in” the Big Bang. I “think that” it is likely with a pretty high degree of confidence, based on what we’ve learned through objective observation and experimentation.
        .
        However there is far more objective evidence to support the Big Bang theory than there is to support the historicity of Jesus. Far, far more!

    19. Ann Saunders Reply

      Patrick, if you believe this is a hoax like you suggested, why don’t you call for an investigation into the blood’s source. If you think it likely human tissue is being baked into a dry wafer without an outward trace showing until it is put into water, why are you not up in arms? But if you just want to detract from the story, keep it up, few if any will take your words ove Christs. We are not indoctrinated as you say, we have reached out into the unknown and asked for evidence of God, and He has returned with affirmation that we know I’d real. If you are as objective as you say, try with an open mind and heart, but don’t expect God to kowtow to you. He is the one who created this complex universe after all, why should He respond to someone who is not open to truth?

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        It’s utterly amazing to me how fascinated Catholics are with these fake miracles. Transubstantiation just isn’t enough, so you’ve got to hold out for these scams and hoaxes in hopes of upholding your faith in things your brain knows are not possible. I’ve been on this forum for some time now, and the only thing that comes close to having the same participation is the topic of masturbation, followed closely by the topic of Hell.
        .
        It’s not my place to call for an investigation, that’s what the Vatican has to do. The Church is making the claim. Actually one Bishop is making the claim. I’ve seen no evidence that the Vatican calls this a miracle, just this one Bishop. I’ve seen articles saying that the Vatican calls this a miracle, but those articles have absolutely nothing to back that up, and nobody here has provided any evidence that the Vatican is foolish enough to call this a miracle. Those making the claim have to provide the evidence. If you claim unicorns exist, it is not my duty to prove that they don’t; it’s your duty to prove that they do, since you are making the extraordinary claim.
        .
        If you read all the comments here, you’ll learn that the first sample sent to researchers came back negative, but the second sample, apparently contaminated as a result of the different method used, came back with a positive; however the researchers said that because of the condition of the sample, (not original), the evidence would be of little value in a court case. Far and away, the most likely scenario is that the Bishop needed to drive some traffic to his diocese in order to get some money into the coffers. Abracadabra we have a miracle!
        .
        I don’t think, based on what we’ve learned since the story first came out, that the original host was contaminated by having human remains cooked into it. The red stuff is a natural phenomenon, caused by certain microbes, which has occurred in similar situations before. I’ve even read other articles in this forum, cautioning readers about this phenomenon. The Catholic Church allows you to believe in miracles like this. They don’t care what the actual truth is. They care that you believe – that you give up rational thought and reason. They care that you can be manipulated easily because you’re incapable of thinking for yourselves.
        .
        You can get out of it, if you really want to, and it’s so wonderful when you do! All you have to do is learn your own religion. Start by reading the entire bible and remember that the good and loving Jesus is the exact same being as Yahweh. Keep in mind that it is Jesus drowning the babies, kittens and puppies all over the world, and inflicting plagues and killing firstborn, murdering 70,000 innocents because Dave took a census, and instructing that every man, woman, child and beast should be destroyed in the genocide of Canaan – but it’s OK to keep the young virgin girls for your own pleasure. Read the bible, and exchange the word “Jesus” for “God,” “Jehovah,” “Yahweh,” “Elohim” “The Lord” and so on… If you really believe they are one and the same – put Jesus name in the place of Yahweh and see if you still feel the same way about him. While you consider that, consider that in his Yahweh persona he sent people to Sheol and destroyed the bad ones at the end of time, while in his Jesus persona, he tortures the bad ones (as determined by disordered, celibate virgins dressed in robes), for billions and trillions of eternal years – though they live here but a handful of decades. You will see, if you read carefully, that you worship an excruciatingly evil god. Fortunately it’s all been debunked by science. It’s OK to come out of the Bronze Age.
        .
        You suggest that few will take my word over Christ’s, but I don’t see any posts from Jesus here. You are indoctrinated – I was raised Catholic; I know how it works. It’s all about laying down neural paths through repetition, and driving the points home with shame, guilt and fear. It’s medieval and should be illegal. Children shouldn’t be introduced to religion in any meaningful way until they are capable of reason and critical thought. Starter gods, such as Santa, should also be discouraged. Teach children to use their magnificent brains; don’t create beliefs that will automatically cause cognitive conflict as they learn real truths that invalidate their beliefs. It’s hard to get rid of beliefs, even when you know deep inside that they are wrong, so it’s better not to form them in the first place.
        .
        You suggest that I am the one who is not open to truth, but why does Yahweh-Jesus go to such efforts to hide the truth? Why does he use such questionable methods as a host that develops a natural response to a microorganism, rather than perhaps having Jesus burst out whole from the host in a somewhat less subtle miracle. Or is that beyond his capability? After all, he can’t heal amputees, no matter how much they pray or believe, right?

    20. Elizabeth Reply

      To Bro Patrick Ganoon to believe or not its your choice and ours but there is something that will never change and that’s GOD’S love for you and us and it is always be available and free. We love you in the the of the LORD .

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        No, believing isn’t a choice. I could simply say out loud that I believe what you believe, but that would be a lie, and if Yahweh-Jesus can actually read my mind, (how does something immaterial interact with the material neurons in my brain?) then he would know I was lying. One can’t simply choose to believe. Our beliefs are based on what we have been convinced of through indoctrination, fear, experience, education, and so on. I threw off the fear and indoctrination, and focused on the education, and now there’s no turning back. I know too much to ever “believe” in mythical gods such as Yahweh-Jesus. The foundation for the Abrahamic gods has washed away. There was no six day creation, two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt, and no conquest of Canaan. We know this today, and without these things there is no foundation for the Abrahamic god. I can’t unlearn what I know now. I am certainly open to being persuaded that components of this foundation survive, but it would require objective evidence. You’d have to find human and dinosaur fossils at the same geologic level; you’d have to show that our DNA demonstrates evolving from two people instead of a pool of several tens of thousands. You have to show that there is some kind of evidence for a global flood. You’d have to find some evidence that 2 – 3 million people spent 40 years in the desert, somehow failing to leave a shard of pottery, a spear, or arrow tip, a wagon wheel or shield in their path. You’d have to uncover archaeological evidence that showed Israelites, rather than Persians sacked Canaan. Without this evidence, how could I change my beliefs, other than to “choose” to lie? Would Yahweh-Jesus reward me for lying, for saying out loud that I believe things I know not to be true? That seems unlikely, given the explicit rule against bearing false witness.
        .
        You suggest that your god Yahweh-Jesus loves me, but so what? What does that change in our lives? Your god is immaterial, but we live in a material universe. Immaterial things cannot affect material things. We know this from extensive experimentation, research and the predictions of quantum field theory. If there were forces that affected the material particles in our universe, we would know it. No such forces have ever been found, and the search has pretty much been given up as fruitless. If such forces exist, they are moot – they have no effect. They don’t matter.

    21. Jannette Reply

      Hi Patrick, I can see how you have made up your mind to be an agnostic. I understand where you are coming from. However, I disagree that there is no God.

      From my point of view…It takes FAITH to believe in God, and the son of God, the Holy Sprirt and the Virgin Mary, along with the lives of Saints, the Miracles that happens everyday.

      As you have said. It takes scientific evidence and you also want to see GOD up close and personal in order for you to believe. I sounds to me that you were once a Catholic? Correct me if I am mistaken.. and sounds very articulate and sophisticated. It’s hard to understand and believe especially when there is no scientific evidence, and if there is evidence….There is also an element of doubt. That’s the reason Jesus died because people did not believe in Him and was angry at Him to have learned that He was the Son of God.

      Just imagine yourself getting into the time machine (time machine does not exist yet) so let’s be hypothetical about and. Pretend you were an observer. How would you feel if you saw a man who fits the description of the BIBLE. I expect you have well read the Bible and have been familiar with the prophets, because you can relate to every verse and have disproved articles regarding Saints and Miracles.

      My question to you is… How would you feel if you were a blind man and wanted to see everything that is going on around you and some guy named Jesus touched your eyes and made you see again? Another one… How would you feel if the same guy who touched your eyes, and given you sight was sentenced to death? Died without due process? Back in those days, they kings, people in higher ranks would just listen to the crowd and do what the people tell them to do. Have they proven Jesus’ crime? To deserve such death? Let’s say it’s one of the greatest mysteries of all times…What did this guy named Jesus do to become so popular that in this day and age, people like us have heard His name? And up to this day, is being mocked? Insulted? even taken to a more sophisticated scientific test just to prove that He is not God? Why is he so hated when he never killed anyone? Hurt anyone, and being blamed unendlessly?

      Why do some people die? Why would God let hundreds, thousands, millions of innocent people die without saving them? And why are there so many undocumented cases of people dying and came back to life? Shared their testimony but some people still need scientific evidence? What about those patients who once had cancer? Were told they have a few months to live??? But suddenly became healthy again. By the way, some of them were agnostics like you. (Diagnosed by doctors, scientists could not explain it)

      The question could be endless. What is amazing about being able to know Jesus and believing in him is. You seem to have a feeling of contentment, peace and joy in your heart that science probably just can say is a psychological state of mind.

      There is no way to prove that there is life after death because of course, we all have to die first before knowing what comes next. To me, even though I may not be as intelligent as you are, as good as convincing you that there is a GOD. All I can say is. I have FAITH in Jesus and believe that God exists.

      Knowing Him gives you peace, joy, contentment and guidance in life. Why bother proving if He exists or not? Why live life with Love and peace in your heart. I’m not saying that life is perfect, because it’s not. Life will continue to experience ups and downs (joys and griefs). Knowing Jesus is like knowing that you have a God and a best friend at the same time.

      What I’m challenging you is, why don’t you do these steps and disprove the existence of GOD for yourself by doing these steps first.

      1. Stop looking for posts of people who believe on this thread and other people’s comments.

      2. Get out of your researches on the Web because as you have said….”Everything”
      including whatever articles are on the internet needs to be proven..before it is a fact..is that correct?

      3. Make a leap of faith. If you are daring, like the Saints were. To reach out to people who are around you up close and personal and observe how they handle their lives and tell us who is happy and who is contented and who is not?

      4. Make a tally and see who is not a believer and who is a believer. Most people I have known, who prays everyday to God. Are not taking depression pills. They are not miserable. 😊😇

      5. Also, I have known that minutes before a dying person dies, they are delirious so if they see something and makes a comment like ‘it’s nice over there’ or ‘wow'( Steve jobs) is discountable because there may or may not be a heaven after life?? So, see if you can go to a hospital and witness a dying person( maybe old people’s home) ask them if what their opinion about life after death? Or to be direct….God?

      6. Ask yourself a question…. Why am I so obsess with this thread? Can’t I just live my life the way I want and be contented and happy with it and just leave those Christians alone and let them think what they want and share whatever unproven articles of miracles they like to share? After all, all these things will reveal the truth by itself after we die? Right?

      7. Give me a list of things that Christians should do to live a happy life? And send us back an inspiring comment of how you live your life and why you are so happy and contented being an agnostic?

      God bless you in your journey and I pray that you find these answers as long as you live. 😇😀

    22. Alkanse Zabrinski Wawatchinanggo Reply

      It seems that you are ignorant or making Church ignorant of how an investigative procedures to be done with regard these matters before proclaiming and publishing these. Should I tell you like a first grader?

    23. Pete Thomas Reply

      Patrick….nobody on this site should judge you for what you do or do not believe. Only God has that right. As someone who has truly been blessed by the grace of God, all I can do is pray for you and hope that you open your heart to Him, some day soon. I will also pray for you. I will pray that you are ready and prepared to be judged by Him when that day comes. For example….if He asks why you deserve to enter heaven….what will you say?

    24. Nellie guezen Reply

      Dear Patrick, think about these words.

      The mistery of his presence here,
      No mortal soul can tell.
      Whom all the world can not contaian,
      comes in our heart to dwell.

      It is a mistery. I hope one day you will be enlightened and your mortal soul can accept God,s grace.

  2. Miss Crowther Reply

    Don’t be an idiot! No one’s been murdered. This is what Jesus meant when he said “I am the bread of life “

  3. Rose Reply

    Jesus said Its is better to believe that have not seen then to see and not believe.
    I’m sure there were investigatioms that covered all.doubts

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      I searched and have been unable to find anything that indicates a proper criminal investigation was confirmed. Some other publications are asking the same question. It will be interesting to see how this develops. Crackers don’t turn into heart tissue – someone had to put it there, if that’s what it really was.

      1. Dave Reply

        Look up Lanciano Italy miracle. No amount of evidence would probably ever change your disbelief unless you saw for yourself.
        But as Christ told Thomas, ” blessed are those that believe that have not seen”.

      2. Mitch Reply

        Every experience I have had with crackers is that they dissolve within a few minutes of being put in water let alone months as the case here.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          But what if human tissue had been included in the dough in the first place, which is the most obvious alternative here….

          1. V.Vella

            Perhaps it would have rotted given the length of time it has been in contact with water? A question in general, may I ask why Satanists make such an effort to steal a consecrated Host?

          2. Patrick Gannon

            V.Vella, you most certainly may ask why Satanists want to steal consecrated hosts, but I sure can’t give you the answer. I know nothing of Satanists, and there’s no more evidence for Satan than there is for Yahweh, so I can’t help you. I did a quick search on the web and found lots of charges from religionists, but I couldn’t really find any reliable evidence that this cult specifically makes a practice of desecrating hosts. I suspect that this is mostly urban myth, though there are enough weird groups and cults around that someone is sure to have done this in the past. I would look at it as sort of a school kid prank. I mean, what harm is being done? Let’s say the so-called miracle is true, and Jesus is in the host, and it falls to the ground, or someone does something unnatural with it, whatever – how is Jesus going to be hurt? How do you hurt an all-powerful being; particularly one embedded in a cracker? If eating him doesn’t do any harm, it’s hard to see how he could be harmed in any other way.

  4. Ray Azar Reply

    Did they do a DNA ? Publish the results here !!

    1. Marina Arango Reply

      For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for the unbelievers, there is not sufficient proof in the whole world.

      1. John Smith Reply

        For those who believe this actually occurred without human intervention, well go find yourself another grilled cheese sandwich with the Virgin Mary on it. It’s a miracle!

    2. Mary Reply

      Some people just can’t take that leap of faith. So sad. He died for you to have eternal life!

  5. B. Korte Reply

    You’re an unbeliever. You’re expected to say dopey dump crap like that, but I’m glad to say it’s true. Praise God. Thank you Lord for this miracle. May God sustain you , and help you with your sagging faith.

  6. Elizabeth Reply

    You have no clue what you are speaking of. My God Bless you and help you learn all Catholics believe this is the body and blood of Christ. All priest come from the first Apostles and perform this miracle during mass. Be careful of what you speak. Amen I say to you, I believe in the body and blood of Christ. Sacred heart of Jesus pray for us.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Not every Catholic is gullible enough to believe that heart tissue which shows up in a host is a supernatural event. I suspect that most intelligent, educated Catholics assume that there is some hanky panky at play here, and they probably don’t like this medieval superstition that prevents the Church from leaving the Iron Age, and keeps it looking so out of touch with reality.

      1. plantaseed12 Reply

        Patrick,
        I’m neither gullible or non-educated—nor to do believe in superstitions. But I am truly devoted to the faith–and believe in the Eucharist we receive as the true body and blood of Christ, our Lord and God. This is not the first such Eucharistic miracle. I suggest, in your spare time….not knowing if your schedule allows…you could review the book EUCHARISTIC MIRACLES by Joan Carroll Cruz. It’s a wonderful representation of numerous such miracles throughout history. I also will pray for God to open your heart and mind to the faith traditions. Secular society is not my moral compass—true faith doesn’t ask the Church to ‘evolve’ with the times. Miracles do exist. Peace.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          I’ve defended my points at length in other posts here. Point me to real, objective, empirical evidence for a miracle, and then we can talk further. That means I want a trail of evidence with no missing links, I want a wide range of scientific tests including DNA, and I want a team of reputable scientists to confirm that the laws of nature were violated. It’s one thing to believe in the invisible miracle of Jesus inhabiting a cracker, but when you delve into real physical miracles with blood and tissue and such, then the scientific rigor must be extensively applied and documented. I found the book you referred to online and browsed through it – several of the cases I looked at have been debunked by skeptics, or alternative explanations provided, or the trail of evidence shown to be incomplete, etc. Believing weird things doesn’t make them true. The RCC says the miracle is supposed to be Jesus inhabiting the cracker – I don’t recall being taught as a child that the miracle sometimes turns into real human tissue. I doubt that’s in the catechism.

  7. Barry John Reply

    Patrick Gannon, another atheist who spends more time discussing God, the Bible and Christians that most Christians, yawn.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Barry, I prefer ‘agnostic.’ I have no idea whether gods or afterlives exist given that there is no objective evidence for either. I’m willing to investigate any empirical, objective evidence put forth to support these things though. Most Christians, it often seems to me, don’t spend enough time discussing God, perhaps because deep down they know that they have doubts, and they fear releasing them when faced with real information and invoking critical thinking skills which good discussion requires.
      |
      You don’t see any concern about human heart tissue being found in crackers that people are eating? If they were handing out samples at the supermarket and someone dropped one on the floor and they put it in water and it developed a bloody stain, and it turned out to be human heart tissue – there would be someone going to jail – and that may at some point end up being the case in this situation, if they actually investigate this as a crime, as they should. On the other hand, it’s probably a hoax intended to bring a stream of pilgrims and their offerings.
      |
      I struggle with the entire concept of Jesus suggesting that we should eat his body and drink his blood. That would have been about the most despicable thing a Jew, like Jesus, could even suggest – unless it was made perfectly clear that it was in some way allegorical. Jews have specific rules about handling meat in order to avoid drinking blood, and Jesus was first and foremost a Jew. This drinking blood language was introduced by Paul in the 50’s CE, and then copied decades later, almost word for word, by the other gospel writers, except the author of John who apparently doesn’t buy into the story.

      1. Jenni F Reply

        Patrick – Yes, the concept that Jesus would ask us to eat his flesh and drink his blood is quite challenging. The Jews had just as hard a time with it, but it is very clear that Jesus was speaking literally in Jn 6 or the Jews and many of his own disciples would not have reacted the way they did. Look at Jn 6:51-55, 60-61, 66-69

        “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. […] Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. […] After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

        The Jews are offended and leave, many of his own disciples leave, but he does not explain it away. He asks them to see with eyes of faith, not eyes of flesh (“It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words I have spoken are spirit and life”). He even challenges the 12 apostles to see if they will leave over this teaching as well. They do not. They stay faithful. And they are rewarded with an explanation of how this all will work at the Last Supper. See Lk 22:19-20 (also Mt 26:26-28)

        ‘Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.’

        He shows us HOW we are to eat his body and blood – under the appearance of bread and wine. It is by this sacrament he created at the Last Supper and through the power of the Holy Spirit as he asked his apostles (and the bishops and priests appointed down through the ages from them) to do this in memory of Him. To consecrate bread and wine just as he did, and it will be changed into his very flesh and blood (This IS my body, this IS my blood).

        All the early Church Fathers believed the same and many wrote about it, even Martin Luther says as much about the Eucharist being the true body and blood of Jesus:

        St Ignatius of Antioch – a disciple and contemporary of St John the Apostle in 110 AD talks about it
        St Justin Martyr speaks of it in his apology (defense of the faith) to the emperor of Rome in AD150
        St Irenaeus, pupil of St Polycarp, who was taught by the Apostle John, wrote about it in AD195
        St Cyril of Jerusalem around AD350 wrote about it in a catechetical lecture.

        Here are two quotes from Martin Luther on it:
        “of all the fathers, as man as you can name, not one has ever spoken about the sacrament as these fanatics do. None of them uses such an expression as, ‘It is simply bread and wine,’ or “Christ’s body and blood are not present,’” – Luther’s Works, Vol 37,54

        “Who, but the devil, hath granted such license of wresting the words of holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures that my body is the same as the sign of my body?…It is only the devil, that imposeth upon us by these fanatical men…Not one of the Fathers, though so numerous, ever spoke [thus]…they are all of them unanimous.” – Martin Luther

        All the Eastern Catholic Churches (founded by the apostles) that broke away from the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years before the Reformation (Orthodox, Coptic and Armenian) still believe in the Real Presence.

        In addition there are many Eucharistic miracles that have happened over the years that have been scientifically tested, the earliest being the miracle of Lanciano, Italy from the 8th century AD. You can see information on several of them here: http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html and there also is lots of information in the book Eucharistic Miracles by Joan Carroll Cruz. Take a look.

        When Jesus speaks figuratively and there is misunderstanding, he corrects it. See examples in Jn 4:31-34 in the story of the Samaritan woman and again Mt 16:5-12 speaking of the leaven of the Pharisees. This figurative or symbolic speech doesn’t mesh with the clear literalness of Jn 6 on eating his body and drinking his blood.

        Furthermore, symbolic references to “eating flesh” or “drinking blood” in the bible mean to attack or persecute. That doesn’t make sense with what Jesus is saying in Jn 6 either – “He who persecutes and assaults me has eternal life”. See examples of the “eating flesh” or “drinking blood” symbolic references here: Ps 27:2, Is 9:18-19, Micah 3:3, 2 Sam 23:15-17, and Rev 17:6, 16. You can see that this interpretation doesn’t make sense with the context or reactions in Jn 6 or at the Last Supper in Lk or Mt or with what St Paul writes in 1 Cor 11:27-29.

        No, Jesus clearly and literally meant what he said when he commanded us to “eat his flesh” and “drink his blood” and the way he gave us to do this is through the Eucharist. This miracle and all the others simply confirm what he said.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Jenni, that was a good argument, something I seldom get, and I give you credit for it. I don’t buy it though. For one thing, most of the evidence you provide is the bible and the bible is the claim, not the evidence. The words are originally Paul’s and they were copied almost verbatim by the other gospel writers; but Paul wasn’t there to see what Jesus actually said. In fact Paul seems to know nothing about Jesus except that he was crucified and allegedly rose from the dead. For Paul Jesus isn’t even necessarily a real person and the resurrection isn’t necessarily physical. Nobody who wrote the gospels was a first hand witness, and none claim to be. I tend to think that if the words, or something similar were spoken, they were intended to be allegorical, just as Jesus spoke allegorically about the Jerusalem town dump, Gehenna (later translated to “Hell”). Scholars differ on this. James Tabor supports the idea that Jesus wouldn’t have said this, while Bart Ehrman suggests that he meant it allegorically. Me, I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I find it unlikely though, as the passages you quoted confirm that this was something that would turn a Jew’s stomach. By the time the gospel of John was written – one of the last gospels – the idea of drinking blood and eating flesh may have become controversial and the author addressed it in this way. He was writing as many as 6 decades or more after Jesus died. How long did it take us in the modern world to turn a weather balloon with foil material, found by a rancher, into a crashed UFO with alien bodies in Roswell, NM? Paul may also have done this intentionally as he moved his new religion away from the Jews and towards the gentiles. He was attempting to do away with the Jewish Law at the time, so while he may have been a Jew himself, the Greek influence on him, probably distanced him from his fellow Jews with an Aramaic background.

          I addressed Lanciano elsewhere. The “miracle” wasn’t even reported till 1000 years after the event by an anonymous source, and of course there is no reliable chain of evidence for something that allegedly took place that long ago. When a team of scientists using modern tools, and following a strict chain of evidence informs us that the laws of nature have been superseded, then you’ll get my attention. Thanks for your reasoned response, though!

      2. Jacob Flaherty Reply

        Patrick, It seems that you follow the idea of Hitchens, Dawkins, and the ‘new Atheists’ who believe in something called ‘Scientism’, a belief that ascertains that unless something can be empirically proven to be true, then it isn’t. The problem with such a statement is that the statement itself can’t be empirically proven, either.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          You misrepresent the new atheists. They do not claim that unless something can be empirically be proven to be true it isn’t. I’ve never read anything by any of them that would support that. They simply claim that until we have empirical evidence we don’t know. Dawkins is called an atheist, but he prefers agnostic and he defines a range of agnosticism. He puts himself at the end of the range that is closest to atheism, but he says over and over again that we just don’t know if there are gods or afterlives and we can’t prove it one way or the other. I suppose there are people who believe in ‘scientism’ as you defined it, but I don’t know anyone like that.

          1. Matt Dillahunty

            Hello Patrick,
            You seem to be confusing the terms atheism and agnosticism. Atheism and theism address belief and agnosticism addresses knowledge. Since you do not believe in a God then you are automatically clumped into the atheist category. Atheism is NOT the assertion that ‘no Gods exist’ but rather the lack of belief in one. A theist (a person who believes in God) can also be an agnostic. They can not know if a God exists but choose to believe in one anyway. You are identifying as an agnostic-atheist which means you do not know if a God exists, but you do not believe in one.

          2. Patrick Gannon

            I understand the definitions, Matt, but I still balk at being identified as an atheist because that word is, as you pointed out, all about belief. I don’t like the idea of belief, and it’s not that I believe there are no gods or afterlives, though of course my skepticism is pegged to the right of the meter, but that I simply lack enough knowledge to either believe or disbelieve. I don’t think I ever said that I don’t believe in God; I have repeatedly said I lack evidence to support any such belief. I think it’s a fine difference, but not all that important except that many atheists seem intent on labelling agnostics as atheists. I avoid the use of the word ‘belief’ at all costs, when referring to myself. Instead I “think,” with some degree of confidence based on available evidence. I try as hard as possible not to believe. You’ll see me say, “I think it likely that….xyz ” but you’ll seldom, if ever, see me say, “I believe that…xyz”
            |
            But who cares? The question is whether a miracle or a hoax occurred, and given the laws that govern our physical matter reality, I think the probabilities are pretty clear that this is a hoax or a crime of some sort, and I’m guessing you agree!

      3. Clark Pendel Reply

        Jesus was a Jew, that’s correct. But he went against the grain (otherwise the pharisees would have used something other than blasphemy to condemn him). He was a good Jew, but he is more than a Jew. He is God (Son in the Holy Trinity) and the authority of what he says goes because he is indeed God. The body and blood of Christ truly are what is said “the body and blood of Christ” It is something beyond our understanding, but that’s because we don’t need to understand. Unless you’re a scientist, you wouldn’t know or understand much of anything if anything about atoms or nuclear fission or DNA, but you take scientists’ word for it when they tell you about it, because “they know what they’re talking about.” Well, maybe priests and the religious know what they’re talking about. Just as scientists know little about the universe we know little about God. You believe that the universe is vast and contains unknown possibilities because the scientists tell you that that’s how it is (Don’t even say for a second that you came up with that yourself) and they show you pictures and math equations. We as Christians believe that God is indeed real because we are the evidence of himself. Love, justice, mercy. Where’s the math in people caring for people they’ll never meet. Why do people donate organs or bone marrow to strangers? Why do people give money to a homeless man on the street or forgive and forget wrongs of others? You can say “Oh they do that to feel good about themselves” which may be true, but why do people feel good about that? Why do even agnostics or atheists fall in love with people in there life? Or celebrate birthdays and anniversaries and mourn those who have died? There is no math, no numbers. You can believe what you want, but you can’t escape the truth of something more than what you take in from “facts.” Remember that everything you said here is something that you have FAITH in.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Clark, comparing what priests know (absolutely nothing with empirical, objective evidence), with what scientists know based on overwhelming evidence is a non-starter. Science isn’t based on faith – pretending to know things you don’t know or understand – science is based on evidence, predictions, testing, etc. No, priests and religious people don’t know what they are talking about. How can they? There is absolutely no real, verifiable evidence to support their claims. I trust scientists, because I can read their theories and study their evidence myself. Religious people have no evidence, and what evidence exists debunks it. There is no evidence for a mass Exodus from Egypt, but there is evidence of errors, such as Abraham referring to the use of camels before they were domesticated, and evidence for cities said to exist during Moses time, that didn’t come into being till long afterwards. There is no evidence for a 6 day creation, but there is evidence for a 13.7 billion year old universe. . There is no evidence for a conquest of Canaan by Jews, but there is evidence that the Persians invaded.. There is no evidence of a global flood, but there is evidence for plate tectonics. There is no evidence for a fall from grace or original sin, but there is evidence that humans evolved over hundreds of thousands of years, and there is DNA evidence that excludes the possibility we came from two specific parents. The bible is the claim, not the evidence, and the evidence when we get it, is usually contrary to what the bible says. .
          |
          You ask why people do good things for each other, and please note that this is true even of atheists, agnostics and non-Christians. It is because we evolved altruism as a trait as it helped us survive and reproduce. If every individual is selfishly on his or her own, fewer would survive than if all contribute and work together to ensure that our genes pass on. This is well explained and documented by science. Why do monkeys groom each other? Why do parents care for children? If they did not evolve these traits, survival would have been more difficult.
          |
          I utterly reject your assertion that everything I say is based on faith. I’m not pretending to understand things I don’t know. If I don’t know, I generally admit it.

      4. Mitch Reply

        Well apparently most other Jews thought the same thing (John 6:50-6:69). The whole point of this bringing back together body and blood. In the Jewish tradition separation of the blood from the body symbolized death. Here Jesus bringing them back together symbolizes life.

        What proof do you have that Jesus didn’t say that? Or is it your faith in what another agnostic told you that you base your belief that Jesus did not say that? Hand written accounts about 17 years after the fact is pretty reliable information from that era.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          You used the word “symbolizes” which makes some sense. In my reading of scripture, I don’t see Jesus meaning this literally. As when he spoke of Gehenna, the town dump, later translated to “Hell,” I think he was speaking in allegorical terms that the people of the time understood – again, assuming he actually said any of this.
          |
          You ask what proof I have that Jesus did or didn’t say something. I have the same proof you do – NONE. You refer to hand written accounts in the year 50CE and that must refer to Paul, who was not a first hand witness and doesn’t claim to be. In fact Paul appears to know little or nothing of Jesus’ life and ministry, and from Paul’s perspective, Jesus could be just an idea rather than a real person. However, we don’t have Paul’s original handwritten letters available to us. The earliest original manuscript for the NT that I’m aware of is at least 100 years older than that, and is a tiny fragment of the gospel of John.

      5. Isabel Kissinger Reply

        To satisfy your unbelief, why don’t you be the one to conduct investigation? or ask those investigator to invite you as observer

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Seriously? I’m not a forensic scientist or investigator. The real question is – why didn’t the RCC insist on a proper investigation before they made fools of themselves by announcing this prematurely? This illustrates a lack of good communication between remote outposts and Vatican central – the hierarchy is being strained, as we know from financial scandals, sex scandals and who knows what else? I suspect the Bishop needed money and he saw that this “miracle” has worked before to bring in the Pilgrims and their offerings, but it could be something much more nefarious.
          |
          If the Vatican confirmed this as a miracle without a proper investigation, they will have really stepped in it. The chances are all but certain, that if there really is human tissue in that cracker, someone set up a hoax, or was feeding people human tissue – something that should be of great concern from a health standpoint, if not a distaste for cannibalism (which the RCC seems to embrace with the eating of flesh and drinking of blood!).

    2. Robert Reply

      John, that is so true. This person gets pleasure insulting other people’s deeply held faith, then mocks them as people of faith. We who know the truth through the eyes of faith will not do anything but pray for his apparently tortured soul. He protests too much. Enjoy your day Patrick. We love you.

  8. philip Reply

    does it have both male and female chromosomes? why was the host kept for so long. millions of hosts probably fall each day and they are not preserved in water!

    1. hi Reply

      they are either consumed or left to disintegrate in the water. wouldn’t you keep something after, instead of disintegrating, began to produce blood?

    2. Jenni F Reply

      Patrick – Yes, the concept that Jesus would ask us to eat his flesh and drink his blood is quite challenging. The Jews had just as hard a time with it, but it is very clear that Jesus was speaking literally in Jn 6 or the Jews and many of his own disciples would not have reacted the way they did. Look at Jn 6:51-55, 60-61, 66-69

      “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. […] Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. […] After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

      The Jews are offended and leave, many of his own disciples leave, but he does not explain it away. He asks them to see with eyes of faith, not eyes of flesh (“It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words I have spoken are spirit and life”). He even challenges the 12 apostles to see if they will leave over this teaching as well. They do not. They stay faithful. And they are rewarded with an explanation of how this all will work at the Last Supper. See Lk 22:19-20 (also Mt 26:26-28)

      ‘Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.’

      He shows us HOW we are to eat his body and blood – under the appearance of bread and wine. It is by this sacrament he created at the Last Supper and through the power of the Holy Spirit as he asked his apostles (and the bishops and priests appointed down through the ages from them) to do this in memory of Him. To consecrate bread and wine just as he did, and it will be changed into his very flesh and blood (This IS my body, this IS my blood).

      All the early Church Fathers believed the same and many wrote about it, even Martin Luther says as much about the Eucharist being the true body and blood of Jesus:

      St Ignatius of Antioch – a disciple and contemporary of St John the Apostle in 110 AD talks about it
      St Justin Martyr speaks of it in his apology (defense of the faith) to the emperor of Rome in AD150
      St Irenaeus, pupil of St Polycarp, who was taught by the Apostle John, wrote about it in AD195
      St Cyril of Jerusalem around AD350 wrote about it in a catechetical lecture.

      Here are two quotes from Martin Luther on it:
      “of all the fathers, as man as you can name, not one has ever spoken about the sacrament as these fanatics do. None of them uses such an expression as, ‘It is simply bread and wine,’ or “Christ’s body and blood are not present,’” – Luther’s Works, Vol 37,54

      “Who, but the devil, hath granted such license of wresting the words of holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures that my body is the same as the sign of my body?…It is only the devil, that imposeth upon us by these fanatical men…Not one of the Fathers, though so numerous, ever spoke [thus]…they are all of them unanimous.” – Martin Luther

      All the Eastern Catholic Churches (founded by the apostles) that broke away from the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years before the Reformation (Orthodox, Coptic and Armenian) still believe in the Real Presence.

      In addition there are many Eucharistic miracles that have happened over the years that have been scientifically tested, the earliest being the miracle of Lanciano, Italy from the 8th century AD. You can see information on several of them here: http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html and there also is lots of information in the book Eucharistic Miracles by Joan Carroll Cruz. Take a look.

      When Jesus speaks figuratively and there is misunderstanding, he corrects it. See examples in Jn 4:31-34 in the story of the Samaritan woman and again Mt 16:5-12 speaking of the leaven of the Pharisees. This figurative or symbolic speech doesn’t mesh with the clear literalness of Jn 6 on eating his body and drinking his blood.

      Furthermore, symbolic references to “eating flesh” or “drinking blood” in the bible mean to attack or persecute. That doesn’t make sense with what Jesus is saying in Jn 6 either – “He who persecutes and assaults me has eternal life”. See examples of the “eating flesh” or “drinking blood” symbolic references here: Ps 27:2, Is 9:18-19, Micah 3:3, 2 Sam 23:15-17, and Rev 17:6, 16. You can see that this interpretation doesn’t make sense with the context or reactions in Jn 6 or at the Last Supper in Lk or Mt or with what St Paul writes in 1 Cor 11:27-29.

      No, Jesus clearly and literally meant what he said when he commanded us to “eat his flesh” and “drink his blood” and the way he gave us to do this is through the Eucharist. This miracle and all the others simply confirm what he said.

    3. Jenni F Reply

      Philip – the correct response when a host falls after consecration to a floor or other such area is to place it in water until it is fully dissolved and then return it to the earth through a special sink. A miracle takes place when the host defies normal physical principals and does not dissolve though it is in the water. And let us hope that ‘millions’ of hosts are NOT falling each day because of the special care they deserve as the true body and blood of Christ.

  9. Michelle Reply

    What a horrible and sacrilegious thing to say Patrick!!

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      It’s only sacrilegious if there is objective, empirical evidence of transubstantiation – which is supposed to be invisible. What scientists have examined this? DNA tests might even rule out whether the sample is middle-eastern in origin. It’s probably a hoax, but putting human remains into crackers that are supposed to be consumed by other people is probably illegal in Poland. The definition of transubstantiation is: “the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining.” See that part about “only the appearances” remaining?

      1. Paul Hedman Reply

        No, transubstantiation means the substance changes. That’s the philosophical definition. Accidents may or may not change with it.

  10. Michelle Reply

    Horrible and almost sacrilegious remarks by you Patrick … Study the faith and be enlightened.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Hmm, we went from “horrible and sacrilegious” to “horrible and almost sacrilegious,” so we’re moving in the right direction. The definition of sacrilegious, “a violation or misuse of what is regarded as sacred” clearly doesn’t apply to me since I’ve never touched that particular host. Whether that host is “sacred” or not requires detailed scientific analysis. Until such time as the laws of nature are conclusively proven to be breakable – something that hasn’t happened yet – the default condition must be skepticism. If Jesus can make his heart tissue appear in a cracker, then for crying out loud he should be able to show up in person. Why would he taunt people in this way?

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Seriously? We have a monk in 700 CE who claims to have turned bread and wine into real flesh and blood – but wait… this wasn’t reported until an anonymous source in the 17th century, over 1000 years later reported it. Various ecclesiastical investigations were performed from 1574 – 1970 under what conditions? What chain of evidence exists? How do we know samples weren’t tampered with? How do we know that the scientists who studied samples were given the right thing? The answer is, we don’t. There seem to be no sources for any of the tests or experiments. This is completely unreliable.

  11. kristin Reply

    I pity the doubting Thomas’ …. Thankfully, faith doesn’t need proof. These miracles are for those who doubt. What a joyous gift to the people of Poland….and the Church believers!

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      “Thankfully, faith doesn’t need proof.” That’s because faith is pretending to know things you don’t know. If you actually have proof, there’s no need for faith, because then you know it.

      1. Mary Reply

        Patrick have gone through a lot of ur comments. Science say: seeing is believing. How i pray the same conversion of St Paul will happen to you.you are a beautiful soul, you are Christ like and I Jesus still loves you the way you are. Don’t let the devil Deceive you. Have ever thought how you ever thought about the awesomeness of God ? whether you believe in the Eucharist or not , it doesn’t change the Eucharist from been the body of Christ. Until you taste an apple you can never tell how it truely taste. So come taste a little of Christ and you would love to have even more. I love my Catholic Faith, in her I found Christ and He is all I got, I don’t mind sharing Jesus with you. Come taste and see i bet you, you will never regret loving Jesus.Eucharist is real, live after death is real,heaven is real, hell fire is real, Christ is real. Patrick God loves you so very much. Note: other youth who find it difficult to believe in Jesus or the church(catholic) ask the Holy Spirit to help you and you would b amazed at His(The Holy Spirit) work.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Yes, seeing is believing. Thomas was the only one of the apostles who knew that. I don’t think I’m interested in Paul’s visions. So much was left out. Jesus didn’t tell him anything that might have actually saved millions of lives, like sanitation and how germs kill. He even suggested washing your hands before you eat was a needless tradition of little value. How many millions of lives could he have saved if he had just taught the people of the time about germs. But he didn’t know. He didn’t know to tell Paul that there was no talking snake, no tree of temptation, no humans made of dirt and ribs. He didn’t tell Paul anything about evolution, or we wouldn’t have original sin to deal with today. Paul could not have invented that concept (with Augustine’s help) if he had known what we know today. He didn’t know that his prediction that the end times would come within a generation would be proven wrong, and apparently led Paul to make the same failed prediction.
          |
          I’ve often thought about the awesomeness of the universe – from the small scale in a microscope to the cosmos in a telescope, to the beauty and power of nature. No gods are required to achieve awesomeness. I had my fill of tasting Christ as a child. I’ve “eaten” Jesus many hundreds of times, questioning as I gained intelligence and knowledge, the truth of the stories the (disordered) virgin, celibate men in robes were telling me.
          |
          Hell is real? Which one? There are four of them in the bible. Your assignment for today is to tell me which one is real, and why.
          |
          You seem to think I am a youth… not in quite some time, Mary. Not in quite some time.
          |
          By the way, it is now a month since this story about the bleeding host hit the news. I just checked and there have been no updates to the story. The Church probably acted quickly to kill any ongoing publicity on this. I think it’s interesting that the RCC allowed or encouraged the story to die quickly. If there was real useful DNA evidence and no concern that a crime may have taken place, then I think we’d have heard a lot more. One thing for sure, authorities should have wanted to check for missing heart tissue on the part of anyone recently deceased or operated on!

  12. Anna Lucia Reply

    Dear friend in Christ, at Patrick Gannon, i will be praying for you Patrick. You have questions, you asked. Just allow your heart to be opened to embrace the truth when it comes. God bless you.

  13. Jonathan Reply

    “Take this all of you and eat of it. For this is my body, which will be given up for you.”
    Thank you Jesus..

  14. Lisa Smereczynski Reply

    I would bet the blood type would turn out to be AB…Christ’s blood type….this is NOT the first Eucharistic miracle….many miracles like this have shared the same evidence…God Bless all Believers!!….It is NOT our job to convince Mr. Gannon…he is searching, albeit with a wounded heart and soul, May God Bless him on his journey!

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Nobody knows Jesus’ blood type. They didn’t even have such tests back in his day. Unless you could specifically follow a chain of evidence for a sample of Jesus’ blood for the couple thousand years it took to develop such tests, anything else would be pure conjecture. You have absolutely no way to prove that statement – none whatsoever unless Jesus returns and provides a sample or someone is able to locate (and confirm beyond reasonable doubt) his body.

  15. Greg Reply

    Praise be to God !!!!!
    “This is my body which will be broken for you “

  16. Ruel de Mesa Reply

    A Devil’s advocate is in the house. Please ignore him! True Catholics never argue about religion and faith! If you respond, you will get into a loop with someone of different faith.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      LOL. Christians love to talk about how strong their faith is – the willingness to face the lions in the den. Apparently some aren’t even willing to stand up to questions about their faith. The faith must be very weak if it is unable to stand up to basic questions. You say true Catholics never argue about religion, but that’s what this entire website and forum is about.

      1. Martin Reply

        Many (most?) Christians’ faith is hanging on by a thin thread, Patrick. It’s not easy to believe that God is also a man and turns wheat wafers into his physical substance. Yet there is a logic to it and it’s not just random nonsense; however, difficult to believe. In fact impossible to believe without supernatural help. But that’s begging the question, right? So any discussion about miracles needs to start with the supernatural (simply defined as the source and sustenance of natural existence). Affirming or denying the latter is going to have a considerable bearing on the former.

        I’m sorry that you receive some hostile responses here. You raise some valid questions and it would be in the bishop’s best interest to thoroughly test something like this before approving it for display as a miracle. Especially because it is entirely optional for a Catholic to believe or disbelieve in this. You say the story has gone “dead” but (having worked in journalism for a number of years) I think it’s a new story and we can give it a bit more time to develop. Also I don’t speak Polish (do you?) And I’m guessing most of the coverage here is in Polish. We can wonder why a major English news site hasn’t covered it – The Guardian, for example – but that’s a question for their editors. Who in the Vatican should promote this? The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? The Pope? Anything from the Holy See to make this some kind of “official revelation” for the universal church would be improper, because it is not a part of the doctrine of the faith, but a local event. It is up to the diocese to publicize this.

        I’ll be travelling to the parish in Legnica in August to see this, by the way.

        Martin

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Martin, thank you for that intelligent and thoughtful note. Point taken, with regard to not speaking Polish and following the local news. I continue to Google for updates using different search terms, as I expected something else to be said about it – however there are prior, similar claims that also seem to have just languished, only to be called up again when a new incident occurs – but there seems to be no finality to these. I haven’t made an exhaustive study of that, so it’s only my impression, but might be worth taking another look at when I have some time.
          .
          Don’t worry about the hostile responses; I’m well vaccinated by prior exposure! You know what’s really odd? I find that it’s more difficult to be an agnostic than an atheist. Both sides go after you! We don’t know about miracles – and thus we come to the issue you raised regarding the affirmation or denial of the supernatural. I like your definition (source and sustenance of natural existence), but I’m not sure how much it helps. What we define as supernatural, say the soul, could conceivably be identified as a natural substance in the future – a field for example. When we can fully map and track every neuron in the brain (yeah it’s out a bit, but we’re getting there), we will see if everything works according to the laws of physics. If it does – no soul, or if there is, it’s irrelevant. If it doesn’t, then the effects that this soul has on other particles can be observed and measured, and thus inferred, just as we infer dark matter by how it affects other things. At that point, it’s not supernatural any longer. On the other hand, we could be a simulation in a video game, or existing in parallel universes. All we know for sure is that we don’t know, so how healthy can it be mentally, to tell ourselves we believe things that our brains know we don’t know? What effect does that cognitive conflict have on us as individuals and societies? Does that growing internal conflict explain why Christianity is becoming known as the religion of hostility to the other? As more knowledge comes in, is more conflict set up with existing beliefs? Where does that take us?

          Please do report back here anything of interest that you discover, and of course, objective evidence is always appreciated!

    2. Anne-Marie Reply

      St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine might disagree that “True Catholics never argue about religion and faith.” It might be more appropriate to say true Catholics don’t insult others or censor people when challenged.

  17. Moe Reply

    [41] The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [42] And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? [43] Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. [44] No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. [45] It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.

  18. Jimmy Lopez Reply

    “For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase

  19. JoAnn B. Reply

    Patrick Gannon…are you the same ‘Patrick Gannon’ that is the current jokester scandalous Chief of Police at Los Angeles Int’l Airport? …Who’s home parish is Holy Trinity in San Pedro, Ca? Just curious if you’re one in the same. I can’t imagine THAT ‘Patrick Gannon’ would say such things on this site and still try to pass himself off as a faithful member of the heavily Roman Catholic community of San Pedro.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Nope. That’s not me. I’m on the other side of the country, and I’m not in law enforcement.

  20. Deudita Ozorio Pereira Reply

    The host has turned into flesh and blood at the time of consecration during mass celebration in Mumbai a few yrs back. The blood spilled around and the place is maintained very well. May be this will help the unbelief of the part time believers.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Only following a legitimate, carefully conducted scientific analysis could such things be believed. There would have to be full coverage of the chain of evidence – the items that went into the cracker, how it was baked, how it was stored, who had access to it, and so on; then the sample itself would have to be tested to see what the DNA tells us. Did it even come from someone from the middle east? Is it male? How old is the sample, etc. I’ve never seen any evidence to support transubstantiation or any other “miracle” that defies the natural laws of our universe. You do understand the motivation for these things, right? A tiny church needs funds, so it discovers a host with signs of Jesus, and the pilgrims come marching in with their donations… it’s all a very clever way to take advantage of gullible people.

  21. Bella Estrella Reply

    Such miracles are proof that the Hosts we receive in Holy Communion are the true Body and Blood of Christ. The Holy Spirit comes down upon them during Consecration and transforms the hosts in a process that we call ‘transubstantiation’. I truly believe in it. Even though the Host I receive does not physically change, a number of instances, I felt it warm as it melted on my tongue. In those experiences, Jesus made me feel that He truly is the One I receive. I never doubted, but perhaps He just wanted me to feel Him more. I love those experiences because I prayed more fervently as I knelt, and the warmth of His Love sent tears flowing from my eyes.
    Julia Kim of Korea experienced the Host turned into real flesh with blood right on her tongue, and these occasions were photographed.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      The Julia Kim assertion was debunked by catholicplanet.

  22. Kari Reply

    Jesus is not taunting people! He’s testing our faith in Him.
    If Jesus appeared as he really is in heaven, His splendor would be blinding… and EVERYONE would know that He is God. Emphasis on KNOW. Until He chooses to reveal Himself to us, He asks us to have faith in Him.
    Someday, all of us will know… before then I hope your doubts change to Faith.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Why does Jesus need to test our faith? I was told that he could see inside us and know our thoughts. Such tests of faith are not required if this is so. You suggest that if Jesus appeared as he is in heaven his splendor would be blinding and we couldn’t look at him. He managed (according to the claim) to present himself as a man and to still conduct miracles intended to convince the primitive people of the time that he was God without blinding anyone. Is he unable to do that any longer? Is manipulating crackers or appearing in cookies or French toast the best he can do to announce his existence? Not very impressive for an all-powerful being, if you ask me.
      |
      You mention something interesting though. You say that if he did return in all his splendor, then we would “know,” and that’s exactly my point. Evidence allows us to “know.” Without it we can have faith – but faith is just pretending to know. Asking us to pretend to know things without evidence is like asking children to pretend Santa Claus is real. Believing it is so, doesn’t make it so.
      |
      Whether we will all “know” or not when we die, remains to be seen. Chances are that the lights just go out. Consciousness appears to be a product of the brain, and when the brain dies – we’re toast, so don’t waste your time pretending to know things – go out and learn real things, useful things, helpful things, so that you can actually “know” to the extent that is possible.

  23. lm Reply

    just fyi Patrick, i am an educated Catholic and guess what? i believe that this is a miracle. God gives us miracles every single day, throughout the day, but we are so blinded by our own pride, our selfishness that we don’t see it.
    that is the reason the world is in the state it is nowadays, because instead of using the freedom God gave us in the way He would like us to & follow the example of Jesus, we do the opposite, we question His unconditional love.
    so, yes He does things like this, a bleeding host, a part of Him that He shares with us and we are darn lucky and blessed to have, a breeding host to remind us to see Him, that He is real & that He hasn’t given up in us. even when we have.
    God is all good, powerful & all love. I hope one day you & people like you & even those of us who say we are faithful but, only to our advantage can one day reach the ultimate goal God has for us…sainthood

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      What will you say if it turns out that it was a hoax or the result of natural causes – which is the most probable outcome if the evidence is made available to proper scientific research? The CNA or Catholic News Agency reported a similar case in which it turned out that the red stuff was really fungus. To the best of my knowledge (and I keep searching for updates to the story), no legitimate scientific inquiry has taken place.
      |
      You’re saying that of all the ways God could communicate his existence to us, he chooses to use a cracker that fell on the floor in an incident that just reeks of trickery and deceit or natural causes. Why wouldn’t He choose some way to reveal Himself that wouldn’t be so open to doubt and question? I guess I figure if there really is a God, He isn’t that incompetent.

      1. Joseph Reply

        Patrick, you are definitely a very smart person…that seems to be very evident from all your expert replies. You only have two problems: 1. You don’t have childlike faith….2. You trying to be too smart…smarter than the Creator of mankind….just like that individual who tempted Eve with an apple.

        God bless you and May you find your way back to his arms🙏

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Why thank you Joseph. 1. I’m not a child any longer, and don’t don’t see any more evidence for Santa Claus, unicorns and fairies than I do for Yahweh. 2. Trust me, I’m not too smart. I know a lot of people a lot smarter than me. What I try to do is keep the parable of the talents in mind. That’s a story about people who don’t use the gifts they are given… If I’m smart, then it’s a gift, and I intend to use it as directed by the parable.
          .
          You don’t really believe in talking snakes do you? Keep in mind that the snake told the truth. Yahweh told them on the day they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that they would surely die. They didn’t. The snake told them that Yahweh didn’t want them to eat it because then they would have his knowledge of good and evil. That is exactly what happened. See Gen 3:22. Yahweh lied, and the snake told the truth.
          .
          Basically, I think Gen 3:22 was a warning that some of the gods were evil and Yahweh (formerly god of war before he became the one and only god) is definitely evil as we define that word today. Anyone who condones or commands genocide, sexism, racism, prejudice against the disabled, homophobia, murder of innocents, outrageously disproportionate justice, wrath, vengeance and fury is not a good being. We were given fair warning in 3:22.
          .
          Some early Christians actually wrote texts that spoke of Jesus mission to save us from Yahweh. We aren’t the first to recognize that Yahweh (if he existed) is evil. How many people did he kill? How many did the snake kill?

  24. Celeste Reply

    “…Jesus suggesting that we should eat his body and drink his blood. That would have been about the most despicable thing a Jew, like Jesus, could even suggest – unless it was made perfectly clear that it was in some way allegorical.”

    That is correct. And many followers left because of this.  

    Many that stayed were willing to undergo torture and death. Even today, 2000 years later.

  25. Mischelle Reply

    Praying for you Patrick, that you may be enlightened by the truth of this Miracle that happens everyday at the sacrifice of Mass on the alter, which celebrates the crucifixion of our Savior, Lord and Master and His passion of Love to see us reunited with Him in heaven. His body and blood heals, nourishes and strengthens our souls which are so ravished in sin, for the soul remembers it’s creator, and His body and blood sustains us in this world of darkness and hatred. This life is only temporary and we only have two choices at our death, heaven or hell.The opportunity to receive our Lord in the Eucharist is the greatest gift we’ll ever receive, greater than anything of this materialistic world! Father, Son and Holy Spirit know no boundaries, they can show up however they choose to manifest themselves. He did show up in person and look what happened when He did, but He knew what was going to happen and followed the will of the Father for the redemption of the human race. Someday may you thank Him, Patrick! Pride, which is why Lucifer was cast out of heaven, cometh before a fall… Just remember Jesus is always present and see’s your struggle and unbelief, it’s ok, He can handle it and He loves you unconditionally, even to the point of death for our sins.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      That’s very thoughtful of you Mischelle, but I understand what transubstantiation is – I was born/raised Catholic. I know the story, but it’s not based on anything factual. There was no original sin because there was no Adam and Eve. We know this from science, cosmology, evolution, plate tectonics, and so on. You say we have only two choices at death, heaven or hell, but that’s not true. The most likely thing that will happen is the lights just go out and there is no choice – just death. So far the evidence implies that we can’t have consciousness without a brain, so when the brain stops, that’s the end of the ride. And if it’s Hell – which Hell? There are four of them: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus were the original words that the RCC translated into the pagan word “Hell.” Which Hell am I going to? And what of heaven, where we lose free will and we’re no longer who we are now anyway? Heaven holds no attraction for me, and never did. For me, as a kid, being Catholic had nothing to do with going to heaven, and everything to do with avoiding Hell.
      |
      You say the three gods, father, son and holy ghost can manifest at any time, but there is no objective evidence that they have ever done so. Transubstantiation is not in the least bit objective! Prove that the supernatural can manifest in our physical matter reality in an objective, empirical way, and you’ve got my full attention.
      |
      You want me to thank Jesus for giving his life, but I have no reason to thank him. I didn’t have anything to do with the sins of any mythical Adam and Eve. Any sins I committed can only be forgiven by the person I hurt, not by a third party. It would be obscene for me to forgive someone who hurt you but did not hurt me. What right would I as a third party have to forgive crimes committed by one person against another? God is supposedly all-powerful and can’t be hurt, so the idea of needing forgiveness for hurting Him is an absurdity. Surely your god is at least as distant from me as I am from ants, but I don’t forgive the ants that bite me, I ignore them or if they really tick me off, I destroy them – I don’t torture them or put them under a magnifying glass in the sun to burn them as your god would apparently do, and I certainly don’t forgive ants for what they do to each other. And no, Jesus does not love me unconditionally. There are very specific conditions on his love, and in the Catholic church the list of conditions is much longer than in most other Christian denominations. At a minimum I am required to believe something about Jesus in order to get salvation – that’s a condition on his love. An unconditional love would mean the salvation of all people, which some universalists believe, but which the Catholic Church definitely does not. The Catholic religion is all about conditional love. They are an ‘obey our conditions or else’ organization, just like feudal lords in the middle ages, living in splendor while the peasants slaved away in guilt and fear.

  26. Mavis Kemnitz Reply

    John 6:53-69.

    1. Sheila M Seeber Reply

      Partick, I see there are many things about the Catholic Church that you misunderstand. I’m sorry for your poor education when you were a child, but i suggest that you attend an RCIA (Right of Christian Initiation for Adults class, and present your arguments there. The priest and other leaders there should be able to address each of your many misunderstandings. Until then, please know that the Catholic Church as you know it isn’t the Catholic Church that true, educated believers know.

  27. Catherine Reply

    Brother Patrick,

    I pray God will touch you & reveal Himself to you as He did to Paul the apostle and may you serve Him all the days of your life when the scales are removed from you eyes.

    God bless & take good care of you brother.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      I don’t deny that Paul thought he might have seen Jesus in visions – but it’s likely he was mistaken. After all Jesus led him to believe that he would be returning within Paul’s lifetime or certainly within a generation, and that didn’t happen. Also Paul was under the impression that sin entered the world through one man, Adam, so it’s clear that Jesus forgot to tell him about evolution and that there was no Adam and Eve made of dirt and ribs, and thus no such thing as original sin from which we need to be saved.

  28. Jim Englert Reply

    Woe to this generation that seeks a sign.

  29. AR Reply

    Patrick, food for thought:

    The Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence is the belief that Jesus Christ is literally, not symbolically, present in the Holy Eucharist—body, blood, soul and divinity. Catholics believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist because Jesus tells us this is true in the Bible:“I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:48-56).Furthermore, the early Church Fathers either imply or directly state that the bread and wine offered in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper is really the body and blood of Jesus Christ. In other words, the doctrine of the Real Presence that Catholics believe today was believed by the earliest Christians 2,000 years ago!

    This miracle of God’s physical presence to us at every Mass is the truest testament to Christ’s love for us and His desire for each of us to have a personal relationship with Him.

    More Scripture about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist:

    • (John 6:53-56 RSV) So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; {54} he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. {55} For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. {56} He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

    • In the Aramaic language that Our Lord spoke, to symbolically “eat the flesh” or “drink the blood” of someone meant to persecute or assault them. See the following… (Psa 27:2 KJV) When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

    • (Isa 9:18-20 RSV) For wickedness burns like a fire, it consumes briers and thorns; it kindles the thickets of the forest, and they roll upward in a column of smoke. {19} Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts the land is burned, and the people are like fuel for the fire; no man spares his brother. {20} They snatch on the right, but are still hungry, and they devour on the left, but are not satisfied; each devours his neighbor’s flesh,

    • (Isa 49:26 RSV) I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. Then all flesh shall know that I am the LORD your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”

    • (Micah 3:3 RSV) who eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them, and break their bones in pieces, and chop them up like meat in a kettle, like flesh in a caldron.

    • (2 Sam 23:17 RSV) “Far be it from me, O LORD, that I should do this. Shall I drink the blood of the men who went at the risk of their lives?” Therefore he would not drink it. These things did the three mighty men.

    • (Rev 17:6 RSV) And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly.

    • (Rev 17:16 NIV) The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

    Thus, if Jesus were only speaking symbolically about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, as the Protestants say, then what He really meant was “whoever persecutes and assaults me will have eternal life” — which, of course, makes nonsense of the passage!

    Bread and wine are not normal or natural symbols of flesh and blood. To call a man a “fox” is an understandable symbol for cleverness. To call a man “bread” is not an understandable symbol, without some explanation. Either the symbols would have been clearly explained (which is not the case) or Jesus spoke literally (which is the case!).

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      I know what the Catholic belief is AR. I was born/raised Catholic. I understand that you take it literally because the Church tells you to, but that doesn’t mean Jesus thought the same way. In any case, we can’t know, can we? None of us were there to quiz Jesus and see if a) he really said it, b) whether he meant it literally or symbolically. The words were first penned by Paul, two decades after Jesus died, and Paul didn’t know Jesus. We don’t even have original manuscripts to start with.
      |
      I’m not going to get into a semantic battle about the dual meanings of eating flesh and drinking blood in the original language – it’s clear that it was an anathema to the Jews and Jesus was a Jew. In my opinion, if he actually said this, he meant it symbolically, but as mentioned above, there’s no YouTube video to consult with to see what really happened. That he was speaking symbolically seems clear enough – he didn’t carve off his arm and offer it to the crowd to eat. I think he was talking about his message, not his person, as being bread of life, etc., and some people understood that, and the rest thought he was nuts – which he might have been. We don’t know.
      |
      I see transubstantiation as something that can be ignored. There’s no evidence whatsoever that the supernatural is manifesting in our physical matter reality, or we’d be able to measure it. Manifesting means interacting, and that leaves things that can be measured. It’s not a sensible miracle.

  30. Charlie Petersen Reply

    For anyone that has read the comments or wrote them on this article. I wanted to share that Faith cannot be defined by what is seen or touched not even by what you believe or know. Being Catholic or Agnostic we should all agree that the judgement of others is wrong. For those that believe this is a miracle may your faith grow from it. For those that believe it to be a bizarre treachery may you find comfort in what you know. If there is something to be gained from this occurrence maybe it is the reminder that we are all different and no less accepted by our creator then another. Should we all find ourselves in Heaven you can be certain no matter what you believe or know that we will all have one thing in common. “We were able to forgive, and we were forgiven.”

  31. lenbeckman Reply

    Patrick patrick. You poor child. Ever hear of the miracle of Lanciano, which is 1200 years old? It, too, has been verified to be cardiac muscle. Or the Shroud of Turin. Even better, the Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Jesus is not taunting; He’s promised to reveal Himself to everyone. Even you.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Lenbeckman, I haven’t been a child in quite some time. I am familiar with the story. There is no established chain of evidence for 1200 year old samples. The story wasn’t even reported to centuries after it supposedly took place. There may or may not be cardiac tissue in these samples – the question is, how did it get there? In some cases, these red stains have been shown to be a type of fungus.

  32. Sue Reply

    I think we should all pray for Patrick.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      That’s sweet of you Sue, but I’m not sure it’s worth the effort. Some people say that Bible God has a grand design, a divine plan, and even Paul suggests that we are preordained for salvation or damnation, so praying for God to alter His plan is probably not the most productive use of one’s time. Then there is the Templeton Foundation’s ‘prayer’ study some years ago in which anonymous patients about to undergo surgery were prayed for. There was no statistical difference in the outcome of those prayed for and those who were not; and people who were told that they were being prayed for actually did worse. (There are legitimate reasons for that result, like they may have felt their condition was worse than they thought, or that they had to perform, and this increased anxiety which led to worse outcomes).
      |
      The problem with prayer is that there are three answers: Yes. No, and Maybe Later. The problem is that these answers have been determined to match up statistically with pure random chance. Prayer also bothers me when people claim they prayed for something and God gave it to them. If that’s so, then I have to ask what makes them so special, and why didn’t God answer the prayers of the parents of the children who will die of hunger and disease before I finish this post. The God you pray to insists through the Catholic Church that those least able to afford large families be condemned to do so through denial of contraception under threat of eternal punishment. Nah, I’m not a big fan of prayer. Save your breath. Spend that time helping someone who needs help. If there is a god, that will count more than mumbling words over me… But I do appreciate the thought.

  33. Randy Levine Reply

    Humanity’s need to believe in something, anything, is so strong that some people are willing to forsake their own awareness of what is real. The end result is that they reach a point where they cannot differentiate the truth from the false.

    Be calm brothers and sisters and know this: That YOU are the god you seek. To all of life’s questions, ‘YOU’ are the answer.

  34. David Anthonysamy Reply

    Lets take Gannon’s caution slightly more seriously and at the same time pray he experiences the power of God intimately in his life.

  35. zepol Reply

    Prayers for you brother Patrick, those who deny will certainly find truth when they die. Keep searching for whatever “proof” you need, you may find it. May God touch your heart and reveal His Love for you.

  36. L ee T Reply

    Patrick you have studied much, and are still unbelieving. I pray you keep your search going, for it seems that unbelievers bring about more believers through the information they find! May God bless you and your search for truth.

  37. Michelle Kennedy Reply

    I would like to know why the police weren’t called. How is it that there hasn’t been a criminal investigation?

  38. Anne-Marie Reply

    To those who are angry with Patrick Gannon: Why on earth would would we NOT want a criminal investigation? Are you that worried about the results? Faith may not need “proof” as some on here have said, but God’s truth is verified by science, not disproved by it. Stop bashing someone who is entitled to his opinion. If he doesn’t believe, you’re not helping by trying to silence him. If you’re not going to provide valid, inoffensive arguments, think again about how a true Christian would respond.

  39. Jim B Leonida Reply

    @Patrick Gannon – it’s OK. I’m praying for you and that the Lord would be instrumental to the enlightenment of all of us. Thank you for being an instrument in order for me to pause and pray. May God bless you.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      While you are praying, ask for some objective, empirical evidence that He exists!

  40. mikeobiora Reply

    God I thank you for making me a christian & a catholic. and for this eucharistic miracles. I pray for mercy & divine blessings upon my live, families,friends& wishers, i also pray for my engineering workshop & networking business for your divine touch. Father through your son jesus christ, extend your indulgence & eucharistic clensing to my life, may you protect your church & your own from temptation Always Amen..!!”

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      What does the bible say about public prayer: “5”When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6″But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.…” Just saying…

  41. Stefani Keller Reply

    I’d like to know about any ongoing searches as well. One of the most fear inducing comments I have ever heard in response to anyone asking “Why?” is “It is something beyond our understanding, but that is because we do not need to understand it.” That is a downright cop out. You can have your faith, but don’t let it stand in the way of the truth. If your faith ends up being reality, well done. But until then, a true investigation needs to be done before whatever children were present end up dead from a possible blood born disease. The majority of the instances you people have shared, Patrick has CONSISTENTLY refuted with solid proof and none of you respond after that. You just disappeared (more than likely because you ran out of anectodal evidence that your preacher or your mom told you about). And anyone who does add a comment very obviously did not read his previous responses as he has had to repeat himself countless times. Patrick seems to have a vast knowledge when it comes to religion whereas you religious folk are lacking entirely. Which general seems to be the case when any type of religious debate incurs. Athiests and Agnostics generally DO have a more indepth knowledge because they actually question everything and are forced to look deeper whereas the religious just accept everything as fact because of…what? What was it? Oh yeah…FAITH! Hmmm

    I know, you all wanna pray for me. But don’t. My family has been doing it since I was eight years old and started noticing the indescrepencies and condratictions within the Bible and quickly became the black sheep because I had a mind of my own. Needless to say, after twenty years, nothing has changed except my growing distaste to how people believe everything without so much as a questioning glance. But hey, who am I to judge?

    But back to my point, instead of looking at the religious view and your undying faith toward your deity, we seriously need to take a look at what all it could have been.
    1. If it was human flesh, that human could very well have had a disease or condition that, once another human digests it, it is now in their blood. If the donar had HIV/AIDS or any number of incurable blood born diseases, hey, now everyone who ate it has it. To name a few, malaria, syphilis, and brucellosis. Hepatitis B (HBV), Hepatitis C (HCV), and the Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) are the most common and dangerous.
    2. If it was ANY type of flesh, it was left out for an extended time period in an uncontrolled, room temperature environment (the average temperature throughout Poland at the time of this instance was approximately 65 degrees fahrenheit. ANY kind of tissue needs to be kept at a constant of 32 degrees fahrenheit to be safe for eating. It was kept nowhere near that), which means BACTERIA! Bacteria that you do NOT want in your body! FYI that means severe health complications. Here are a few of the diseases that can be contracted from eating meat that has been allowed to spoil: Anthrax, bovine tuberculosis, brucellosis, salmonellosis, listeriosis, trichinosis or taeniasis. And because we don’t know whether it was from a human or an animal, the list is rather extensive. And no one can say whether we do know for certain or not because NO TESTS WERE DONE.
    3. If it was a fungus, as Patrick said, you need to look at what type. Because, as we all SHOULD know (considering we all were required by the board of education to take several science courses throughout school–WHICH MEANS….dun dun dun….WE’RE NOT RELYING ON FAITH BECAUSE WE DO KNOW IT!), most fungi are NOT good or even remotely safe for the human immune system.

    Personally, I don’t care what you want to believe because you’re all adults and you’re all of legal age to make whatever decisions you deem necessary to continue living your life. If you want to drink the Kool-Aid, by all means, drink it. But do NOT include children in your games and rituals without first making sure they are completely safe. You can have all of the faith you want, but you need to think of the opposite end of the spectrum: What if Jesus and God ARE testing you, but not how you expect them to? What if they are testing to see if you will blindly follow (which is bad) or if you will think for yoursel fand protect the ones you love, thus keeping HIS loved ones alive (DING DING DING This is GOOD)? Ever think of that? You guys don’t have an instructions manual written by HIM telling you what to do. You have a booklet written by various men throughout thousands of years (Patrick has already listed for you in EVERY SINGLE COMMENT HE POSTED what the timelines were and who wrote what, when so there is absolutely no reason for me to relist them–do you reading, folks. It’s good for you) writing THEIR depiction of certain events. And you are following them blindly. You’re not even following your faith, you’re following random men throughout history–while saying scientific facts are fake.

    I dunno about you guys.

  42. Jon Reply

    Having an atheist brother, I’ve had many such conversations (and arguments) on religion and faith as I see on this forum. The problem ultimately comes down to apples and oranges. The atheist/agnostics demand empirical scientific proof of God/miracles etc. while the believers quote scripture or expound upon the ways God has touched their lives. One demands objective proof while the other is based on a subjective relationship. But God isn’t a lab rat to submit himself to our experiments, like the atheists demand. He reveals himself to, and works his miracles for, those who believe. Jesus didn’t work miracles for those who didn’t believe, and it was unbelievers that were so offended by him that they put him to death. But atheists/agnostics, don’t despair. There is a way to test the theory of whether or not God exists. Be the lab rat yourself. Instead of putting God to the test, put yourself to the test. Seek him in faith and see what happens to you. Pray and meditate on the mysteries of the Rosary for a significant time period and see if you change. Read the Gospels not looking for ammunition in an argument or demanding objective proof, but to develop a relationship with the subject, Jesus. For once, enter into your own experiment, not proud and defiant, but honestly, humbly seeking understanding. Until you do that, these discussions are at cross purposes. This isn’t a perfect analogy because God isn’t a shy creature hiding away from us, but when scientists hear of evidence of a new animal in a remote region of the world, they don’t demand that the animal come to them to be verified; they make the trek to where the animal is and spend weeks studying the habitat, trying to learn where it spends its time, what it eats, etc. and setting up cameras in the hopes of getting a glimpse. And if they really want to gain a deeper understanding, they build a relationship with the animal through habituation. The same goes for God. If you want to find God, you need to go to where he is, seek him out if you want to get a glimpse of him. And if you really want to understand him, you need to build a relationship with him.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Many agnostics and atheists were formerly believers who did all the things you recommend, as have I. You suggest reading the gospels, but I recommend reading the entire bible cover to cover so you can find out what sort of rather horrible god Jesus believed in, and the sorts of fantastic campfire stories he believed about creation, global floods and the imagined history he believed about the Exodus from Egypt and conquest of Canaan. Jesus believed in all this debunked stuff in the OT, but he was supposed to be a god. He didn’t even know about germs and basic sanitation. He could have saved millions of people, but why would he? Like the other messiah’s of the time, trying to repair a failed prophecy in Jeremiah, as recalculated by Daniel, Jesus thought the end times were very near. He was an apocalyptic missionary, and he was wrong. He didn’t know about evolution, he didn’t know that the earth went around the sun, he didn’t know that epilepsy wasn’t caused by demons – he was just as ignorant as anyone else living at the time. If he was God, then God doesn’t know any more than the people living at any particular point in history.

      1. Scott Reply

        I have read the Bible cover to cover. I see a story of men who rejected God repeatedly much like yourself. I also see stories of people who were limited by their “thoughts” and “logic”.

        I also learned that the Bible is a combination of fact, fiction and moral teachings. If you read the Bible as completely fact or fiction or moral teachings, you will never understand it. That is your blind spot. You want everything neat and tidy, all explained. And the sad part is, you think you are being logical and scientific.

        You are wasting your breath trying to substitute your worldly experience with spiritual experience. Those of us who have experience the presence of the Holy Spirit will never denounce the existence of God. We have had a tangible, physical experience that you have never had. You can believe that or not. It makes no difference to me. I know what I experienced.

        Your arguments are boring. We have heard them all before. They are not original. All of these ideas you have gotten from others. You are following a religion, but you don’t realize it.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          What parts of the bible are fact? I know the parts that are fiction, and they form the basis for the god that the religion is about. There was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan. Non-religious scholars are almost universal in their agreement regarding these mythical events that form the very basis for Yahweh. Without these things there is no foundation for Yahweh and the religion that surrounds this evil god. (Yes evil. There were early Christians who wrote texts saying Jesus came to save us from this secondary and evil god). Sure there is a smattering of fact. Some of the people, places and times are real – just like when a fictional novel is placed in a historical setting. Sure there are some moral teachings (and many horrible immoral teachings). However if there’s no basis for Yahweh, there’s no basis for the religion.
          .
          In the post you commented on, I mentioned that Jesus (if he existed as a historical person) believed in Yahweh, the Jewish god, but if Jesus is who the RCC says he is, then he IS Yahweh. He is the god who drowned the world including innocent women, children, babies, the unborn, animals, etc. in a mythical flood. He is the person who killed innocent Egyptians and tortured them. He is the one who said the Israelites should kill every man, woman, child and beast, but to take virgin girls as war booty. He is the one who condones genocide, slavery, racism, sexism, homophobia, discrimination against the disabled, etc. And Jesus is the one who sends mere humans who live and err for but a handful of decades, to trillions of years of eternal torment, knowing in advance which ones are going. I doubt anyone could come up with a concept more evil than that. He even denies salvation to completely innocent, aborted, miscarried and stillborns who commit the heinous crime of not being baptized. He’s so evil he has to command that we love him. Who among us has to command that our children love us? What the Catholic Church taught me as a child about your god is mind bogglingly evil – and then they told me he was good. I’ve never been able to trust a definition in Webster’s since then! I could find no definition of “good” that matched what the RCC told me was good.
          .
          As for my arguments being boring and noting that you have heard them before – I think that’s great. When I grew up as a Catholic I knew nothing of the countless arguments that debunk the Church. I’m glad I can share some of that with others, so perhaps they can get on their own path to discovery of a joyful life that does not include Catholic guilt, shame, fear, and hostility to the other. Prior to the advent of the internet, few believers had the opportunity to hear the arguments unless they consciously sought them out in libraries. Today the cat is out of the bag, and there’s no putting it back in. Sorry you don’t like my arguments. Easy enough to skip my posts…

  43. Jon Reply

    Just want to chime in here. I haven’t read all the comment–just don’t have the time–so I have no idea of this has been covered or not, but a couple of things strike me. First, believers don’t need miracles, so whether or not this turns out to be one isn’t all that important. Second, seeking empirical, material, observational, repeatable, testable evidence of God won’t happen until Christ comes in glory for one good reason–free will. With irrefutable proof comes a cessation of free will. God wants us to seek him out, but he leaves that choice to us. He wants us to live good, moral lives, but he leaves that choice to us. He imposes nothing on us by force. He desires a relationship with us, and that comes through a spiritual union with him. It isn’t something testable. It’s apples and oranges to demand objective scientific evidence when the evidence is subjective–a person to Person experience. Atheists/agnostics want God to be their lab rat, but they are unwilling to make themselves the rat, to be IN the experiment rather than outside of it. And that’s because unlike searching for a mythological beast in the Himalayas, to find God demands serious changes to one’s life whereas finding a Yeti doesn’t. That’s why they are never willing to subject themselves to the test to see if the evidence appears within their own hearts. They won’t pray the Rosary or read the Gospels daily for a month with a sincere heart to know the truth because they don’t WANT to know God. That’s the bottom line. No evidence will be enough. So the atheist/agnostics can stop demanding evidence and the believers can stop giving scriptures because y’all are at cross purposes here.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      If believers don’t need miracles, why is there so much interest in this particular topic? I’ve participated in this forum for some time, and the only post I recall that generated nearly the same amount of interest had to do with masturbation. I think believers do need miracles, because they don’t really believe deep down – not unless they are locked out from all the information available to put their beliefs to the test.
      .
      You suggest that when Christ comes in glory, we lose our free will. So, those who go to heaven are just zombies? That’s why we have so much interest in all these zombie shows?
      .
      You say that God imposes nothing on us by force – kind of like a mafia enforcer. (1) If you don’t pay the money, I’m going to shoot out your knee. If you don’t pay the money, you are choosing to have me blow up your knee. (2) If you don’t believe say and do the right thing, I’m going to send you to eternal torment where your skin will burn off and be constantly replenished from below. If you don’t believe, say and do the right things, you are choosing to go to this place. Now explain to me why there is no force being imposed….
      .
      Don’t confuse atheists and agnostics. Agnostics simply admit to a lack of knowledge. You want us to accept subjective evidence as proof, but we know that the human brain is not reliable. No two people witnessing an accident will see exactly the same thing. Our brains are very easily fooled – watch the show “Brain Games” to learn about how the brain works and why we can’t rely on it to always give us good information.
      .
      And finally you overlook the fact that many atheists and agnostics have done that whole worship, rosary, bible reading thing. It left something missing – like rational thought. (Actually reading the entire bible creates more atheists and agnostics than just about anything else).

  44. Wyman Reply

    Hey guys, I got to say that this article comments has certainly been amusing and all so just a few thoughts here and there.

    To the people of the faithful:

    You guys cant deny that Patrick has certainly point out the areas in science that you have to acknowledge that is majorly lacked in the miracles of religions in general. Regarding scripture, anyone can use holy books (Bible, Quran, Buddhist scriptures etc.) and conveniently pick out areas to justify their beliefs or interpretations like the extremists do so for their sick ulterior motives. This also the reason why there are so many versions of Christianity…So please…Stop doing that to support your arguments of why the higher being is real to you. I can also do vice versa…

    I think the more important thing is that you should be asking yourselves is this: IF…IF..IF one day science can proof that God is not real, what are you going to do? Does it gives you a reason not to be morale or altruistic anymore since after all, there well be no reward (heaven) nor punishment (hell)? So does it mean all along you are being kind just because God say so and not out of your own heart?

    If its anything, Patrick’s arguments may not convince you but he is certainly confronting the fear of which religious people in general avoid to answer. Just remember, Christian ego is a disease that is not easily noticeable by oneself

    To Patrick Gannon:

    From all the previous threads, you have certainly thought about such existential topics a lot haha. Personally, I have to admit that even being in a catholic religious community, I’m not fully convinced of all the doctrine like Pope infallibility in which the Crusades period has revealed the loop hole for such and it is uneasy for me to fully submit myself to it after all, higher education taught me to question as I go about in my life. Instead, most of my belief of higher being stems for unanswered supernatural incidents that seems to be missing the law of physics elements (the good one: Spontaneous Human Combustion Latest theory: Brian J Ford acetone chemical relation but still not full-proof) and yes, the RCC could make more efforts to be meticulous to verify such claims. So in short, religious people can certainly put in more effort to express their opinions in a humble manner.

    However just for curiosity, in the event science can prove God exist, how does an agnostic like yourself going to react on this? Will you be more anxious about death? Can you comprehend on the idea of God doing noting and let shit happen on earth because he gave free will to humans? Are you able to submit your mind, body and soul easily to this invisible entity? Will it change how you see life as a whole?

    Just a few examples of the topics you can share on

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Excellent questions, Wyman – and yes, they are questions I continue to ponder. There is always the possibility that we will prove that consciousness can exist outside the brain, and thus the concept of a soul could be supported. I have trouble seeing how “God” (which god, how is god defined?) could be proven. The thing about the soul, though is that once we can prove it – assuming we do one day – then it is no longer supernatural, it will become another part of the laws of nature that we have to include and understand. The most likely way to prove the existence of the soul or external consciousness is through its manipulation of other particles that would otherwise obey the laws of nature as we know them today. While we might not be able to directly observe and measure the soul if it exists, we would be able to measure and observe its indirect effects on particles in our physical matter reality. This is just like the Higgs field. We can’t see or measure it, but we can measure what it does to other particles in the cosmos. The soul if it exists could be a similar field that is invisible to us now, but maybe not in the future. For example if Jesus really inhabits a cracker, then there should be some effect on the material in the cracker that violates the laws of nature as we know them today. If there are no such effects, then the soul, even if it exists, doesn’t matter. It’s moot. If it has no effect in our physical matter reality, then we an stop talking about it as something that affects our lives, and certainly we can eliminate the idea of miracles.
      .
      That’s not your question, though – you want to know what happens to someone like myself when/if objective evidence is presented for the existence of the soul, for example. At that point, of course, I have to accept it or grant it much higher degree of probability than I do now. I struggle with how to answer whether it would change my fear of death. As a Catholic child, I had an overwhelming fear of death. I was terrified by the concept of Hell that I had been indoctrinated with, and the continuous drumming into me that I was born broken, undeserving and guilty of things that happened before I was even born. Then I read the bible, and learned about the four Hells, and the lack of biblical support for my childhood fears, and I learned about the debunking of the creation myth, global flood, Exodus, and conquest of Canaan; and finally I spent some time studying evolution, and this utterly destroyed the concept of original sin. The joy, glory and magnificence of dropping all that childhood fear like a bad habit, was overwhelming. I am a regular jogger, and I would get hit with blasts of laughter and joy at how much better life was when I dropped my Bronze and Iron Age beliefs. I always wore sunglasses when running because I would tear up with ecstatic joy at times. My fear of death vanished. After a while, I got used to not being afraid and chilled out, and stopped having those experiences, but they were really something while they lasted. I can make a good analogy for what it was like to lose all that unnecessary fear. I was a gymnast in high school and too many front dive rolls to the back of my neck damaged it, without me knowing it. My neck steadily got worse and worse starting when I was in my early 20’s and lasting for decades. I got so used to the pain that it didn’t infringe on my life most of the time. Finally though, my arm collapsed while doing a pushup and I knew something was wrong. Following an operation to fuse several of my neck vertebrae together I woke up with this amazing loss of pain. I had grown so used to it, that I didn’t really notice how much pain I was in, until it was gone. Such a blessed relief. Losing my belief-based fears was very much like that. I didn’t realize how much fear I had, until I lost it. It’s really rather amazing.

      I got into some New Age stuff and realized after a while they had no more evidence for their nicer, kinder, more feminine god than there was for the Abrahamic tyrant and I learned that it was really or mostly, all about money. That’s when I stopped believing and started focusing on knowing and thinking in terms of probabilities. That’s when I realized that there were perhaps mental health issues associated with lying to myself. I have to tell you that the people around me said I became a much nicer person after I lost my beliefs. (I’m not sure I buy that – grin). I’m not sure, but learning that the soul exists would probably make me a little nervous, having already faced the likely prospect of my permanent demise and dealing with it. However, that would do nothing to confirm the existence of Yahweh, Allah, Shiva, Zeus or any other god. It would only confirm that the New Agers may have been partially right insofar as our consciousness all being part of a larger whole. It won’t prove the existence of an “entity” or “being” such as a personal god, unless some sort of communications portal opens up.
      .
      The foundation for the Abrahamic god has been washed out, so I don’t see how He could ever be proven. He’d have to show up and answer questions about why his book is so wrong, and why morality is so lacking in it, and why He has such a perverse interest in what we do with our clothes off. Even if He did, there’s still no guarantee that this would be a god. It could be a superior alien being, or, as more and more scientists are musing, the possibility that our entire universe is a simulation. At this point, I think all we can do is keep searching for the truth, exercising patience, and being open-mindedly skeptical of all reasonable possibilities. I don’t think we will have that long to wait. I’m an old fart, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we made some significant discoveries with respect to consciousness in my remaining lifetime; but even if it takes centuries, believing doesn’t change whatever the truth turns out to be. Believing only empowers those who dictate what we are to believe. Let’s stop lying to ourselves about believing things that we know we have no evidence for. We can “hope” for these things, but don’t “believe” in them, don’t have “faith” in them – don’t pretend to know things your brain knows that it doesn’t know. I will be very surprised if we don’t confirm scientifically, that belief of this type is bad for our personal and societal mental health.

  45. Sally Reply

    Here’s a science project I’d like to put out there for anyone who is not Catholic/Christian/religious. Use the scientific method and record it for two years. Simply say the words: Jesus, I trust in You. Write it down in a planner or calendar and highlight or check it off when completed. Also, kneel while saying it. If you have a picture of the Divine Mercy, look at it while you say it. In the meantime, continue the wait for whatever evidence pops up around this investigation.
    It actually shouldn’t be a big deal to do this since you don’t believe anyway. I’d like to hear about your findings.

  46. James Reply

    What’s to prove? It’s the eucharistic! Already a miracle!

  47. lou Reply

    Omg….you either believe or you dont..end of story….as a Priest once said to me…nothing to loose if you believe…if it turns out to be rubbish…so what….you’ve lost nothing ..!!!

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Muslims say the same thing. If you believe in Allah and it turns out there’s nothing after death, what have you lost?

      What if you end up believing the wrong thing? What if it turns out the Muslims are right, or the Hindus or the Jehovah Witnesses? What if it turns out that you will be punished for believing any of these things without evidence? Believing is not something we choose. I can’t wake up this morning and decide to believe in Islam when I know very little about it. Belief is something that comes when other human beings convince you, through various mechanisms that at least in religious circles frequently include shame, guilt and fear, to accept as true something your brain knows it has no evidence for – in other words to lie to yourself.
      .
      If you believe in something that turns out to be rubbish, what have you lost? You’ve lost your self respect as a human being.

  48. wacoi Reply

    So much knowledge will be the undoing of some.If this blood was put in the ingredients and baked?how does that turn colour

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      This event happened back in April, and there have been no updates to the story. If it had been investigated by a reputable and unbiased scientific research team, we’d have heard about it by now. I see nothing to confirm that the Vatican, and not just the locals, referred to this as a miracle. In all the articles I have read that basically copy the same story, none includes a link to any of the research institutes that presumably tested this. No results are made available, and no confirmation is made that the Vatican accepts this as a real miracle.

  49. S.R. Reply

    1Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions 2through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. 3They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, 5for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer. -1 Timothy 4: 1-5

  50. Martin Reply

    The god of this world who is Satan also do miracles to deceive people.

  51. JQ Reply

    Indeed we human can only understand what our minds want to recognize. Man wants to measure everything his senses understand. And when some people discusses about faith, some would expound it within the boundaries of their senses. Faith as described by our Lord Jesus Christ is beyond our human senses. It doesn’t need to be explained for it to show that it exist. Jesus whole life remained a mystery even to the brilliant minds of the jews 2000+ years ago. He never revealed anything to those who question Him but for those touched by His miracles all was revealed. As he said, fill your hearts not of the treasures of this earth but of treasures of heaven.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      “Jesus whole life remained a mystery even to the brilliant minds of the jews 2000+ years ago.” Brilliant minds of which Jews? After all, they didn’t accept him as their Messiah, did they?
      .
      Actually he was a mystery, because he was a cosmic god, not a real person. Paul introduces us to Jesus, drawing from other pieces of scripture no longer available, and perhaps from some that are still available, like sections of the “Ascension of Isaiah” which relate a cosmic demi-god who takes on Satan in the firmament, but who is not a physical human being on earth. Paul did not know of a physical Jesus. He knows nothing of Jesus’ birth, family, baptism, disciples, miracles, parables, ministry, or the events of the crucifixion. Paul knows none of this. Only 20 years later when the author of Mark made Jesus a human in order to make the gospels more readily acceptable to sheeple, did these items about his life get invented, copied, and edited by the other gospel writers. Read Richard Carrier’s book about the “Historicity of Jesus” and decide for yourself. It’s likely that early Church leaders knew the “mystery” of Jesus – that he was a celestial being, and that this was reserved for the inner circle; but over time, it seems this mystery has been lost or suppressed by the RCC – or perhaps they still teach it in their inner circles…

      1. Scott Reply

        So Jews did believe actually. The leadership did not.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          I think some Jews believed, certainly the Ebionites did. But for many Jews, I think that belief lasted up till the temple was destroyed and Jesus failed to put in an appearance. Also he predicted the end of the world while some were still living, and that had failed to take place as well. By that time, I think most Jews had abandoned the idea of Jesus as the Jewish messiah; hence the movement went west to the gentiles.

  52. Eze Nnamdi Kingsley Reply

    may our agonising Jesus Christ present in the eucharistic miracle of Poland be consoled and adored, AMEN.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Agonizing? Jesus is in agony? Right now? As God? And an all-powerful being needs to be “consoled,” as though he were a child?
      .
      Provide some evidence that the Vatican has confirmed that this is officially a miracle. Then provide some evidence for the tests that were supposedly conducted.

      What is it with Catholics that they are so desperate for miracles – could it be that they really don’t believe in the miracle of transubstantiation?

      1. Cortezia Miranda Reply

        Yo. I just wanted to high five you *high five* for actually asking questions. Which is more than I can say for a lot of my fellow Catholics. We fall into this trap of just blindly accepting things because it’s “right”. Who says it’s right? You’re supposed to question, you’re supposed to understand what you’re believing in, at least up to an extent. And then we get all defensive when you question us – classic. I’m sorry.
        I didn’t read the entire thread. I just read the first 20 posts, got the gist, and came down here to post this. I’m very sleepy. I’m terribly in love with my faith. Being Catholic is the best thing about me. Yeah I’ll pray for you. Like all of them. Keep questioning. I’ll be praying that you get your answer.

  53. jp pascual Reply

    Its sad that people will not doubt this for a second, i see all catholics believe and thinks to say you don’t is disrespectful, non catholic christians are skeptical but will profess their belief in christ, non christian theist dont believe as well. If this has been about a winged horse muslims will praising allah and christians will just laugh, do you see the pattern? Wake up people and think beyond ancient unsubstantiated belief, you can do it! I did.. I just wish I’m as patient as you Patrick.

  54. Liliana Reply

    After watching an Eucharistic miracle so many times in Lebanon, which occur before and during the consecration of the bread and wine. My conclusion is that in each mass, the real Presence is there. Even till now. It is not just a memorial, it is a constant sacrifice and giving of Our Lord. As God and Lord, He can make Himself present at any time, not only during the consecration of bread and wine.
    Why these miracles happen? My guess is : to remind us that God is ever present, He is not a history of the past times. It is difficult to imagine that God makes this sacrifice in every mass, sometimes is visible, sometimes is not. But the fact is, that is a constant sacrifice.

    Blessed are those who believe without seeing!

    1. Fred Reply

      This is where Catholics are blaspheming Christ. Jesus’ last words on the cross were “it is finished”. The other gospels also say that his death was a ‘1’ time sacrifice. For catholics to say “But the fact is, that is a constant sacrifice” is the same as saying Christ’s death on the cross was not sufficient for the remediation of the world’s sin. Same as the catholic church saying people need to do penance. It is completely opposite to having faith in Christ’s sacrifice.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        I like your answer, Fred, but you neglect to mention that this passage, “It is finished,” appears only in the gospel of John. Mark and Matthew, the first two gospels have Jesus asking, “why have you forsaken me?” and Luke has Jesus ‘commit his spirit’ and pass on. There seems to be some “inspiration” lacking, given the lack of agreement in the gospels, and certainly no support for the silly idea of inerrancy.
        .
        There’s an evolution going on. In Mark and Matthew the “spirit” of god is leaving the body behind. As I understand it, rather than ‘why have you forsaken me’ a better translation is, ‘why have you left me behind,’ as if Jesus the human recognizes that god the spirit has left him. This disabuses the concept of Jesus = God, so the author of Luke changed it up a bit. In his crucifixion story, Jesus does not appear to be suffering as he chats up people around the cross, and then simply passes on peacefully. The Luke gospel seems to be asserting that Jesus did not suffer because he wasn’t really a human, he was a god. The author of John, the last gospel (written, probably 60 – 70 years – two full generations in those days – after Jesus’ death) essentially invents a completely different Jesus and changes up everything. He’s trying to get the theology to fit the proto-orthodox idea that Jesus is wholly god, wholly human, which the other gospels don’t support very well.
        .
        It’s hard to say that anyone is blaspheming anyone, given that we don’t have a clue as to what (if anything) really happened. There are no originals of the NT. It was not “inspired” enough for that. We have only copies of copies of copies, most dating to hundreds of years after the events in question.
        .
        But please do continue to do battle with the Catholics. I love to watch Christians at each other’s throats.

  55. Melissa Mccalley Reply

    Patrick, you are begging people to prove their points, their miracles, their facts. You are searching for something very missing in your life. God. Your Catholic faith. Let go and let God.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Yup. I’m searching for objective evidence. You should be too. There is no more objective evidence that the god of the RCC exists, than there is for unicorns and fairies.
      .
      In the case of this particular “miracle” go to the bottom of the thread and find the article I cited. This was not officially declared to be human remains. The first research dept had an original sample and found no human remains. The Bishop not being satisfied, took it to another lab but did not provide an original sample, but rather a paraffin (wax) block that had traces of the sample as well as traces of all sorts of other contamination. The lab that tested this, found the contamination, and said the results would be of little use in a court case; but the Bishop wanted his miracle so he proclaimed that it was so. The paper explains what the red substance is (bacteria) and explains how this has happened before. It’s completely natural. What this does mean is that no crime was committed, as there were no human remains. That at least is the one good thing out of this travesty.
      .
      Believers were played for patsies and fools by Catholic clergy, and I’m the bad guy. OK. I can live with that. At least I’m not being played for a fool.

  56. Patrick Gannon Reply

    I have continued to check for news of this story since it was announced. Others have done the same, and I think this article pretty much puts the whole thing to rest. There is a perfectly acceptable and reasonable scientific explanation for the phenomenon – it wasn’t actually human flesh, so no crime was involved. The phenomenon is caused by bacteria and by very poor scientific handling of the specimen sent for testing.
    .
    http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/7,114885,19920428,bakteria-ktora-czyni-cuda-skad-moga-sie-wziac-krew-na-hostii.html (Translate it to English in your browser). Excerpts:
    .
    “The history of the alleged miracle began on 25 December 2013 , in the Church of St. Jack in Legnica , where during Christmas Mass one of the priests dropped to the ground consecrated Host. Because according to the beliefs of the Catholic Mass when she was converted into the body of Christ, in which case the special scheme.
    .
    Host should pick up and put in a pan of water to there has been dissolved. After a few days a priest discovered that when part of actually dissolved, however remained in the water passages which, in addition stained red.
    .
    Legnicki Bishop Zbigniew Kiernikowski decided to establish a committee that would consider this event. No wonder – from the point of view of believers that it can belong to the Eucharistic miracles.
    .
    Substituted fragment hosts were directed to research first to Wroclaw Medical University – probably they hoped that the researchers find that the red pieces of this tissue of the human body, which could argue for a miracle. However, the study did not confirm this theory. This did not satisfy the church committee and the sample was taken to another lab at University Medical Pomorski Szczecin . Writes Wroclaw Gazeta Wyborcza , The country’s expertise was different:
    .
    In the material we confirmed the presence of muscle tissue, myocardial tissue likely mammal. Sampling for analysis hemogenetycznych the paraffin block, which in turn showed degraded human DNA – said prof. Miroslaw Parafiniuk, head of the Department of Forensic Medicine of the Pomeranian Medical University in Szczecin.
    However, experts did not receive the original sample.

    We received it in the form of a pad of paraffin. A feature of such samples is a high risk of contamination arising from the procedures for the preparation of tissue for histopathological examination. This means that the sample can get various impurities, including human DNA, as it passes through many hands. Always more meaningful is to study the proof output. If such material was to be examined in the criminal case, its value would be small – concludes Professor Parafiniuk.
    .
    As you can see it is difficult to assess what actually swam in a pan of water. However, microbiology gives us the answer to this question. Event of Legnica is not the first case in which the host suddenly seems to turn into bleeding flesh. Such cases are known since at least 1263 years, when the Italian town of Bolsena host would turn into the human body even during mass. That incident contributed indeed to establish a well-known to us feast of Corpus Christi.
    .
    The article goes on to describe the characteristics of the bacteria, which are identical to what is being described as a “miracle” and then the article concludes with:
    .
    “The Church is of course aware of the existence and operation of sticks wonderful. That is why for a long time comes to such “Eucharistic miracles” with caution and usually do not hurry to the advertising of miracles. Typically, before a number of local priests they come out, for which a “miracle” is an opportunity to promote their own parish and hungry for sensational events of the faithful.”
    .
    Note the translation may leave a little to be desired, but it’s clear enough. They sent the sample to one lab who told them “no go” and they didn’t like the results, so they sent another sample, but not the original sample, they sent the sample as part of a paraffin (wax) block and in this investigation, the information provided was useless because the samples weren’t handled in a scientific manner.
    .
    I have never seen anything from the Vatican to confirm this “miracle.” I’ve seen articles that all copied each other which proclaimed that the Vatican called this a miracle, but I’ve found no evidence that this is true.
    .
    Conclusion: no miracle. You’ll have to stick with transubstantiation.

  57. sweet...but can be toxic Reply

    Who’s not to be mad at Patrick Ganon, so many explanation he still arguing for his own belief and reason. He does that a lot to convince people to come to his church and proclaimed his church founded by JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF cos of the name Iglesia ni Cristo but actually Iglesia ni Manalo! Even GOD get mad so much more people like us to people like Patrick who like a Pharasses in JESUS CHRIST time not believe in HIM. Patrick’s Ganon to me is a modern Pharasses in our time as we as modern Lucifer the snake try to convince people on his own belief cos he is lonely and sad to be alone or just few of them in their faith so he try hard to convince Catholic people to join him like Lucifer the snake to Eve.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      I don’t have the slightest idea what “sweet…but can be toxic” is saying with regard to Iglesia ni Cristo. If he’s suggesting that I am associated with that Church, the idea is laughable. I had to google it to see what it was.
      .
      Hmm… maybe I should open my own church… how about The Church of the Holy Pat (Pat is what my friends call me). I’ll get right to work on that. Shouldn’t be too hard. Just believe whatever I tell you to believe and send me your money. Amen.

  58. sweet...but can be toxic Reply

    It seems I incounter Patrick Ganon on some sites. I think he is legless ni Manalo in PI

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      I never hide behind an avatar or made up username. I always use my own name.

  59. Ademar Reply

    Hey Patrick Gannon,

    A friend of mine ran across your thread here last night and read me a number of your comments.

    I’m a once-a-thread post-er who doesn’t go back to look at responses to my comments,
    so I’ll leave you with a few things to chew on. If you’re an honest seeker for the truth,
    they’ll help you. If you’re simply a troll that wants to be contrary, it’d be a waste of time
    to “discuss” things with you.

    I’ll only touch on two broad things that you brought up.

    1.) Being an agnostic.

    — Reality exists whether we acknowledge it as such or not. It’s not a mental construct projected by our minds.
    (If you doubt that, you soon won’t when the wind blows sand into your eyes or explosive diarrhea strikes before you can get your pants off.)
    — Reality is ordered.
    — That order means that there is an Orderer: God.
    — God has to be greater than anything He created because otherwise He’s subordinate to it and thus not God.
    — Plants are greater than rocks, animals are greater than plants, and persons (us humans) are greater than animals. So
    God has to be at least a person.
    — Persons by nature relate, so God has to be more than one person, otherwise He’d be dependent on a creature for relationship and thus not God.
    So God has to be at least two persons.
    — Persons love. And love produces something or even someone.
    (Ya, I know there are lots of jerks, etc. out there — that doesn’t change the fact that when a person is not a jerk, they love.
    The very act of identifying a person as a jerk already presupposes that we assume there is a person who is truly being what a person should be.)
    — So God is more than one person, but also more than two, because being absolutely perfect, the love between the first two aforementioned persons
    gives rise to a a third person.
    — Since God is personal, He can relate to us. Since He’s perfect, His relationship with us — from His end — is only love (more in point 2 below).
    — Hence, God’s very existence, His being a Trinity, and His loving us is something that is reasonable to us.

    2.) Folks being in hell for billions of years/eternity for a short act they committed in their short earthly lives.

    — Persons by nature have free will — they can choose to act in a way in harmony with or contrary to reality.
    — Because God is the author of reality, choosing to act in a way contrary to reality will cause harm to the person and their environs,
    but their relationship with Him is affected only if the person is knowingly choosing the bad.
    — A person knowingly choosing the bad will find God to some degree revolting, very much so if the bad act is particularly bad. After all,
    if they don’t like the good enough to choose it, they’re not going to like the author of the good either.
    — So, when they finally see Him after death, those that knowingly chose the bad find God absolutely obnoxious,
    and it is very unpleasant for them to be near Him.
    — Sooo, He permits them to flee his revolting presence to a far distant place called hell. The damned are actually less miserable in
    hell than they would be in Heaven with God, and, yes, they are there because they have chosen the bad freely.

    To wrap up: A couple of things I need to suggest you because I’m a teacher of many years:
    a.) Think clearly. (otherwise it’s easy to miss the obvious)
    b.) Substantiate the many claims you make. (makes for more fruitful discussion)

    If I don’t bump into you here in this life, I’ll see you in eternity!

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Ademar, thank you for your response. I’m not sure I should bother to respond to you since you admit that you’re “a once-a-thread post-er who doesn’t go back to look at responses to my comments.” How rude. I don’t understand that at all. If you’re unwilling to engage in discussion about what you believe, then why bother posting your opinion in the first place? I feel that it’s impolite to ignore people who respond to me and I try my best to respond to just about anyone who engages me. Whether you read my response or not, I will give you one:
      .
      1. Being an agnostic. Well, all I can say is that I hope you are not a teacher of logic. Prove to me that reality is ordered and not the product of random chaos. You saying so certainly doesn’t make it so and a great many people would disagree with you. Google, “is our reality ordered” and see how many articles come up with differing viewpoints. Your logic trail ends right here. You can’t assert something you haven’t proven. Even if it we agreed that our physical matter reality is ordered, (and I can’t do that, because I don’t know), it does not follow that there is an “orderer.” Why must this be so? There are lots and lots of theories about how our universe sprang into being which do not require a supernatural being. Again, you have claimed a conclusion without providing any evidence to support it. I really hope you don’t teach logic.
      .
      After having failed to provide a scintilla of evidence for your proposition, and simply asserting the existence of your god, you then define him/her/it in something of a New Age, touchy-feely god sort of way, and again with no evidence to support your assertion. Yahweh is not a touch-feely New Age sort of god. You mention the trinity in passing, posing it as universally accepted doctrine, but fail to mention the centuries of fighting, first between various early Christian sects (Marcionites, Ebionites, various Gnostics, Theodocians, and of course further infighting among the eventual winners, the proto-orthodox) over the subject of Jesus’ divinity, the number of gods, the invention of the trinity, and all sorts of other things. Do you know anything about early Christian history and the debates over such subjects between them? There is nothing objective to support any of them, including the one that prevailed thanks to the Romans. You started with a conclusion and completed with another conclusion, having proved nothing in between. What do you teach, and to whom?
      .
      The point of your logic-less argument, I suppose, was to somehow disprove agnosticism. Your unclear intention and lack of a summary, leaves me unsure of what it was you intended to prove.. An agnostic simply admits ignorance. I don’t know. There may be gods and afterlives. I don’t know. And neither do you or anyone else. The difference is that I admit it. We have no objective evidence for such things, otherwise we wouldn’t still be discussing it. We lie to ourselves and tell our brains, which know we don’t know, that we believe – and that can’t be healthy, as it sets up cognitive conflicts. I have many reasons to doubt the reality of Yahweh, given that his foundation has been all but destroyed in the last few centuries. We know there was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan (at least not by Israelites), and without these things, there is no foundation for Yahweh – which is fortunate because he’s a pretty evil god. I don’t think it’s a good idea to hold beliefs that lack objective evidence, so I try to keep an open skeptical mind.
      .
      2. Hell. Again you start with a conclusion by assuming the existence of Hell. That’s OK for the purpose of the argument you are making, but it must be noted that we have no evidence for a Hell, and it has to be noted that it was a construct of the Church, though whether intentional or not, I only have an opinion, but here’s how we got here. The Church translated four different words to the pagan word “Hell” (actually Hel – German in origin). Those four words are:
      .
      Sheol – found in the OT, mentioned many times, it means either “grave,” “dead” or state of permanent unconsciousness. It was not a place of punishment, and everyone good and bad went there. At the end of time, some Jews argued that Yahweh would wake them up, judge them, the good rewarded, the bad destroyed. We did not get the concept of “eternal torment” until the “good news” of Jesus who spoke of…
      .
      Gehenna – the Jerusalem town dump, mentioned by Jesus 11 times, if my memory is right.. This was a real place, where all the town refuse was burned. It was always burning, the turning worm of smoke drifting through the valley, sacrificial remains were thrown in it. The worst final insult for a Jew was to be thrown into the dump without being afforded a proper Jewish burial. The Jews of the time understood Jesus (real of mythical) to be speaking allegorically. You really have to want to turn Jesus into a monster to insist that he was speaking of a real Hell, but that’s exactly what the Catholics did. Their catechism refers to Gehenna – the Jerusalem town dump. Guess what? It’s been closed for a really long time. At the time Romans were doing crucifixions, they generally left the dead hanging till the birds and rodents had done their part, and then threw the remains in Gehenna – the final insult. If Jesus really existed and was crucified, it’s likely that’s where he ended up.
      .
      Hades – while the Jews to the east understood the allegorical message of Gehenna, the Gentiles to the west were more familiar with the pagan Hades. Hades is mentioned, in some of the other NT books, and it is clearly pagan in origin. Hades, after all, was the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. Apostles taking the message west, used the Hades allegory in the same way the Jews did. Please acknowledge that Greek paganism is in the Christian New Testament in the form of a pagan place of punishment.
      .
      Tartarus – lowest level of Hell, some say reserved for Satan and his demons. Note some early Christians thought Yahweh was Satan and Jesus role was to save us from him. Please fact-check me on this. There’s a lot more to weaken the case for Hell. One of the interesting things is that Jesus was usually talking to clergy when the subject came up!
      .
      So, first we have to admit that there really is no evidence for Hell as we understand it; and most of our understanding comes from Dante’s “Inferno,” Milton’s “Paradise Lost” and a slew of medieval paintings of people roasting in flames. Convincing biblical support for Hell as we understand it today, is in very short supply.
      .
      So on to your argument. We have free will and we choose Hell. Well, if a mafia goon walks into your place of business and says, give me 50% of your proceeds or I’ll put an icepick through your kneecaps, are you “choosing” to lose your kneecaps if you fail to pay the goon? How is that any different from what Jesus gives us? The RCC says we have to believe, say and do the right things, as they direct, otherwise an icepick through our kneecaps will be a picnic compared with what we’re going to get. This is not free will. This is extortion, and to the extent that it is said Jesus does this, then he is evil. Gen 3:22 tells us we know what good and evil are. It’s almost as though Yahweh was giving us a warning that the rest of the book would detail his evil.
      .
      Would you consider the possibility that a person who finds your god to be revolting, may have some sort of mental condition or other issue? It seems there is something different about this individual, and God made him, so we’re told, so why is it his fault? Why should he be punished because he was created to find God revolting? On the other hand, I find the mythical Yahweh revolting. I’ve read the book a couple times. Yahweh supports or condones slavery, racism, sexism, homophobia, discrimination against the disabled, genocide, murder of innocents and so on. His character in the book is highly revolting. Jesus supports sending mere humans to eternal torment, a revulsion that has no equal. Yahweh = God. Jesus = God. Jesus = Yahweh. This explains why he is so evil, I guess. The only way someone could give the Sermon on the Mount and then turn around and send people to eternal torment is if Jesus is evil personified; and given that he is Yahweh after all – it starts to make sense, doesn’t it?
      .
      I don’t know if you are Catholic, but I doubt the RCC would agree that the damned are actually less miserable in Hell than they would be in Heaven with God; but heck, the way you’ve described it, it sounds pretty good. You carefully leave out words like “eternal torment” and “lake of fire.” How is this Hell? You might want to read Sam Harris’ short book, “Free Will” and see if it gives you a different perspective from a neurologist’s viewpoint over how free our will truly is.
      .
      So to wrap up. As a teacher you condescendingly assert you need to suggest something to me. How sweet, given you know nothing about me. a) think clearly. Great advice – go take Logic 101 and then try this post again. b) Substantiate the many claims you make. That’s a bad joke, right? Please substantiate at least one of the claims you made. I almost always provide real information that can be fact-checked with my responses.
      .
      You suggest you’ll see me in eternity. There was an eternity before I got here, and I don’t recall seeing you then!

  60. Leo Pius Reply

    Hello there Patrick Gannon, so I see you been to eternity before you got here, no wonder why I sense you with your the much information you seem to possess yet it is ‘all over the place’ and very much ‘mixed up’ with time. I must admit that your Agnostic salutation you had is new to my vocabulary and it beats me for when I google it and prove that such group had been exist. However the notion is not NEW thought for I know there are still souls/scientific minded people like you whom don’t believe that there is a superior being whom everything else evolves because of it, right?

    But then I remember, in this life we are ought to learn new things both positive/negative all the time until we left it and move on to that life awaits us unless we ‘decide not’ to learn as we already felt content with what we think we had, don’t you agree?

    Anyhow I wish to commend our concern brethren whom tried to shed some light into you even though I can feel your confusion with Ademar recently wondering whether he is a RCC for the way I see Ademar he is witnessing God/Yahweh. Anyhow I do felt your objective quest to prove that the concern incidence of the ‘bleeding host’ together with other shared phenomena to be genuine is yet to fulfill why I decided to had a try myself.

    But I need to warn you my dear friend Patrick that such Truth can only be seen if you had a bit of FAITH within you!. Something that I see you are missing -big time, just like Apostle Thomas!

    Yes -that Apostle Thomas, with an account mention in the Holy Bible on how Jesus Christ corrected his limited FAITH as recorded by John in his Gospel –one of the 73 Authors that had their writings canonized within the Holy Bible contents, chapter 20:24-29. Specifically; -,,25. So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nail marks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”… 29. Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”

    Sure you have a ‘free will’ to choose and I respect it hence I urge you to refrain yourself from that ‘decided not’ group, for that ‘two-person DNA bottleneck’ notion of yours is much fun to realize its full potential should you allow yourself to learn together with the willing help from HIM. I already refer to the wealth of knowledge you seem to possess as ‘all over the place’ and ‘mixed up’ and now wish not to refer to your good self a ‘brainless being’ -like how that student refers to one of his Professor after their lengthy discussion on that “Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol notion” exercised by the Professor.

    Furthermore to the ‘two-person DNA bottleneck’ notion I wish to add one more to it so we can realize the Truth with regard the TRINITY notion. Again I must remind you -hope I am not scaring you away already before you even start that this are Faith stuff.

    All good with you mentioning all the bad stuff by Allah where I see you kind of agree with Ademar that Jesus Christ –God himself, follow suits. But that’s where you go astray.

    Simply because it was of this God the Son(2) at the fulfillment of God the Fathers(1) own good time had reveal the whole Truth about God the Father (1). Yes, that one who concluded his revelation on that Cross at Calvary –sign of Satan, being crushed by Christ Jesus -God the Son(2), crucifix cross.

    Such submission act had fulfilled God the Fathers(1) mission with much satisfaction hence he raised Him -God the Son(2) from the death as it has prophesied.

    He -God the Son(2), had spent 40 days on earth re-assuring his Apostles and the few followers of His that he is Real and he had to return to his father whom is awaiting his return and they are not gone a live them orphan. As on the tenth(10) day later they will send down their ‘advocate’ i.e. God the Holy Spirit(3) which had happen on the 50th day celebrated as the Pentecost.

    And as promised, witnessed and documented as proven upon reasonable doubt that such phenomena had took place. And it had remain that way up to our days which is the TRINITY God is with us through the presence of God the Holy Spirit(3) guiding his Mystical Body on earth which is of the Catholicism.

    Believe it or not that is how the ‘bleeding host’ came about for that same ‘God the Son’ crucifixion 2000+ years ago is still a real thing now a days as celebrated by the Catholicism now a days.
    Now the choice is yours, dear friend Patrick! Stephen had made his and change from being Atheism to the Catholicism. Came across this nice one by a former Muslim who change his name from Imam Sulaiman to Mario Joseph wonder whether you had seen it; –refer link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjUXd4qW9mg.

    There’s also Jim Caizeal -the Jews actor who act Jesus Christ on the ‘Passion of Christ’ movie by Mel Gibson, testimony I came across wonder whether you be interesting to see it for yourself and tested it out with my utmost wish that it will help you with some positive inspiration like I had, refer link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0A6zyN37uw.

    Having said all that wonder how much more you may still need to fulfill your quest -still, and shall keenly await your view or queries as we get to journey together into this wonderful God of ours I wish you to come home to, instead of being alone out there.

    NB; i had a post of my earlier version of this post yesterday but i may had not did it right, second time herewith hope it will come,,

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Hi Leo. I have a little trouble understanding some of your text. Perhaps English is not your first language? An agnostic simply admits what we all know, but what many people can’t admit – which is that we simply do not know if there are any gods and/or afterlives. We have no objective evidence for such things, otherwise we wouldn’t still be discussing it. An agnostic simply admits that he or she does not know. Believing things you know that you don’t know is lying to yourself, and it’s hard to see how that can be mentally healthy. Provide objective evidence for your god and/or your afterlife and most agnostics will line up behind you. As an agnostic, I try to avoid “I believe in” and substitute, “I think that” and base that thinking on probabilities. I think that the probability that Yahweh as represented in the bible is a real character approaches zero, but I leave open the possibility that there really is a cruel and vicious evil god who created us, as some early Christians believed.
      .
      You ask if we ought to learn new things, and of course I agree. That’s how I came to the conclusion that not only was there no objective evidence for gods and afterlives, but the arguments (not evidence – arguments aren’t evidence) weren’t very good either. I did study and I did learn, and I know what’s in the bible, and I know about the errors and contradictions and evolution of theology and early Christian history and other texts that didn’t make it into the canon that tell us that Christianity didn’t necessarily begin as the RCC told us. I studied and learned how they mistranslated words like Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus to the pagan word Hell in order to frighten and control us. I learned that there are no original texts for the bible and that the copies of copies of copies of copies that we have today can’t be trusted to be accurate – particularly since so many early copies are different from each other in large and small ways. I learned of the Church’s history of persecution and oppression. I could go on and on. I continue to learn. It is believers who refuse to learn, who refuse to confront and question their own beliefs. It’s believers who refuse to research things that contradict their beliefs as I did and continue to do. Please don’t talk to me about learning new things until you have walked in my shoes.
      .
      You suggest that truth can only be seen if I have faith, but that’s not true at all. Faith is pretending to know things you don’t know or understand. No matter how much faith I have that unicorns and fairies are real, it won’t make them real. When one truly knows things, they don’t need faith; they don’t need to pretend; they don’t need to keep lying to themselves. Thomas is actually the only Apostle I can respect. He is the only one who employed the scientific method and asked for evidence. Of course it’s just a story the author of John is making up, perhaps 70 years after Jesus’ supposed death. This story is not in the other gospels. John is the least trustworthy of all the gospels, in part because it is the furthest removed from the events in question, and because textual scholars confirm for us that it had more than one author and many redactions (edits by later scribes). All we can say for sure – as with the existence of gods/afterlives – is that we don’t know. We have absolutely no original copies of any part of the New Testament, and most copies come from centuries after the fact, and there are countless errors and contradictions between a great many of those copies.
      .
      Again I struggle a bit with your writing style – are you disputing DNA evidence? Genetic scientists are pretty confident in saying that humans evolved from a pool of several 10s of thousands of early primates. Of course you can always go with primitive goat herders who didn’t know what caused earthquakes, volcanoes and comets to support the myth of original sin, but I’m going with modern science backed up by objective evidence. The primitive bible writers got everything else of a scientific nature wrong, so their credibility is not very good. (Even Jesus told people they didn’t need to wash their hands, when a short sermon about germs and sanitation could have saved millions of lives over the centuries – but then Jesus incorrectly thought the world was going to end very soon. He didn’t know the future any more than he knew science). You are incorrect in saying that the 2-person bottleneck is a matter of faith. It’s not. It’s a matter of fact. It either happened or it didn’t and the objective scientific evidence says it did not happen. Faith – pretending to know things you don’t know – has nothing to do with what is real and true in our physical matter reality.
      .
      I really don’t need the Jesus story re-hashed. I’ve read it for myself many times, but let me give you my rendition of the story: An all-powerful being impregnates a virgin (well not according to the original word) without her consent with himself, in order to be born as a human so that he can sacrifice himself to himself in order to relieve us of a condition he placed on us in the first place. What makes this so odd is that we know he can remove original sin (if it really existed) because he did it for Mary, and that even happened before Jesus’ so-called sacrifice to his own Yahweh persona. (What kind of sacrifice is it when you’re a god and you already know you won’t be dying for good?).

      You choose Acts as your source for Jesus hanging around for 40 days, something none of the other gospels say. None of the gospels agree on appearances after death, and the original version of Mark doesn’t even have a return after death. Critical text scholars by and large give Acts very little credibility. The author(s) of Acts even contradict Paul and try to rewrite his entire mission, making him more like Peter and Peter more like Paul. Acts is a joke. Where is the discussion about the empty tomb? Where is the hubbub and uproar? How is it that apostles can walk the streets preaching of a resurrected Jesus and not be thrown in jail for helping him escape, or at least for interrogation as to where his missing body is? None of that ever happens in Acts. Do you think Pilate wouldn’t raise heaven and earth to find a condemned prisoner who escaped his execution? Not a whisper in Acts. There was no empty tomb. Read some Ehrman, Carrier, Tabor, Butz, Price – learn a little about your own religion.
      .
      No, the bleeding host did not come about as an explanation of the trinity. I cut/pasted an article elsewhere on this page that provides the real explanation, and nobody has refuted it. The Bishop, (wanting to attract pilgrims) sent a sample to one lab who said, ‘sorry, nothing special here.’ That didn’t work for the Bishop so he took a sloppy sample in a contaminated wax block and the second lab found stuff but said it would be of no value in court. It was determined that the red mark is/was a bacteria that is well understood, as this has kind of thing has happened before. The Bishop, in a complete breach of ethics insisted it was a miracle (there is no evidence I have been able to find that the Vatican agreed it was a miracle as some articles have asserted), because Pilgrims bring money. This is a scam. I thought perhaps there was a criminal matter when I first posted, but it’s pretty clear that this was a scam perpetrated by the Bishop to benefit his diocese financially. What amazes me is that this is the most popular topic I have seen since participating in this forum. Many Catholics here appear desperate to believe in Church dogma, grasping at the slimmest of straws to prop up their weakening faith. It’s rather pathetic and sad that in the 21st century, sheeple can still be played for fools by an Iron Age religious organization.
      .
      I am a recovering Catholic and I can’t think of anything that would convince me to give up the joy I found in life after I walked away from that Iron Age attack on my very being with unwarranted shame, guilt, fear and hostility to the other that Christianity, and particularly Catholicism, is all about. Anything I can do to prevent the psychological abuse that comes from indoctrinating children in this Iron Age religion, is what I will do. Your religion worships a (mythical) evil god and calls him good. I don’t know why you referred to Allah in your post and why you provided the link to the guy who converted from Islam to Catholicism – There is no more objective evidence for Allah than there is for Yahweh. Converting from one imaginary god to another is not going to be very convincing to me. I tried that already. I tried New Age God, and it turned out there was no evidence for her either. Yahweh is the evil god I refer to, and some early Christians also thought he was evil and that Jesus’ role was to defeat him in a celestial battle or sacrifice, and wrote scripture saying so. Your Church knows this – but they keep you in the dark because religion is where ignorance is blessed!

      1. Leo Pius Reply

        Talofa, -means Hello, once again to you my dear friend Patrick and yes English is not my first language but am glad to note that such differences is not a barrier for you trying to understand my shared view where I could have imagine you sounds like spending a great deal of time trying to understand me for you must have decided to be friends with me why you response, a ea/right?

        Which reminds me of how Christ Jesus had come about revealing his father –the destructive god I see you have trouble comprehend, to us all by; first that we are his brethren then second friends with His (if I may add the TRINITY God) utmost wish that our close relationship be developed to a realization that we are all of His father’s adopted son’s and daughter’s and that they wished for us all to be with HIM after this preliminary life!

        OK, now I know what an Agnostics is and I quite like that notion of yours to quote; “..have no objective evidence for such things, otherwise we wouldn’t still discussing it,, end quote” to an extent where I kind of having trouble myself figuring out, how much into the negative side of things from the zero position you are at the moment? With much hope that you be willing to open your heart to this God (revealed to us by Christ Jesus) of ours then make a decision yourself to improve your standing position soon?

        Don’t you worry for like Jim Cavizeal, you need not to line behind me -but Christ Jesus –refer Jim Cavizeal testimony I shared on the 9minute 30seconds to 10th minute & 18minute 50secons to 19th minute -to save you time, if you are too busy viewing it,? I see you commenting on the link with Mario Joseph, but I see you have a problem absorbing it for you sound determine on objectively prove to me of Yahweh/Allah’s (i.e. God the father) destruction act,, to which I don’t need you to remind me off. Simply because –I need not to think, as I know,,, that such destruction account you are troubled with (as accounted in the Holy Bible) are all out of “pure Jealousy” towards us His created human race. Imagining your excitement on creating something or say a person to love –like how he created man called Adam, yet your created person to love ended up loving another man instead of you!!?

        But then of course no one of us had done such apart from witnessing a new born baby out of his/her mother –I know for a fact as I had been around my wife giving birth to all our five (5) children,,, even the poor mothers with unfaithful man or got raped,, for the God I’m talking about is faithful one. Never heard of anyone witnessing an Evolution event your scientific minds are trying to preach,,, well -of course, unless have you seen one yourself then you have to state it for me to reconsider my above statement,,!?

        Anyhow I’m glad to learn that you agree with me on learning new things and I’m sorry if had offended you gathering of the tone you ended that paragraph -for you do sounds like a mad man to me or was it because of me not hearing you well,, lol!? I’m also glad with the much learning that you have done with the Holy Bible which means I shouldn’t need to spend much time getting you back on the right track should you agree to hear some brotherly guidance from me. You know, just like how Christ Jesus guide his Apostles back then, before commissioning them with his carrying on mission for he was certain that his time on earth will be done and he is due to return back to His father (Yahweh/Allah) awaiting the completion of His revealing mission. Then allowing His Advocate –God the Holy Spirit (3) as accounted in the Holy Bible, to continue it with us as we are not to be left like orphans, right,, man hope you are with me still?

        Come on, if you really are a ‘recovered Catholic’ then you should be able to agree with me this far, right? Sorry will not waste my time on the other details you discussed but before I end this one I just need to; 1. comment a on the Holy Bible and how you discredit ‘John’s gospel’ and the books of ‘Acts of the Apostles’ for I am certain you had it wrong. With much hope that you and your Agnostic group are not thinking of re-writing the Holy Bible -like how Martin Luther had uphold the similar concerns by Saint Jerome -of the 7 books, yet he did not exclude any while he was translating them for he had submitted the Catholicism Magistrate i.e. the rightful Author of the Holy Bible. Or in the likes of Muhammad whom decided to write the Quran for their Islamic religion -in the 8th Century I think,,, where Mario Joseph testify that it was of the Quran it self that directs him to Catholicism chapter 10 verse 94-96, don’t you agree?

        As for our subject of Bleeding Host in Poland, I am yet to learn of any confirmation from Rome to certify it as genuine phenomena so there i kind of agree with you but I believe in it as many other cases certify by the Church Magistrate plus I would not dare to follow Apostle Thomas lead where Christ Jesus affirms to him later where it should also re-confirm to us that wish by HIM to have all of us back with HIM awaiting us all. And it is this Eucharist matter seen Christ Jesus stand firm as recorded by again, John 6; 22-59 The Bread of Life Discourse. Then, the Words of Eternal Life John 6; 60-71. Note how he asks his Disciples verse 67 “Do you also want to leave?”.

        Currently we had a lady with Stigmata -a phenomena in our island country Samoa occurred on Easter season this year, in Rome for the Church certification,, so stay tune,,!

        Anyhow, I wish not ‘to leave you’ alone out there and should you wish to continue, then I would be happy to respond more as we journey along. Keep It up and we will soon get to have fun,, shall we?

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Hi Leo. I lived in Hawaii for a while when I was a kid, so I will respond, “Aloha!” I see you are from Samoa (we had some great Samoan football players on our high school team! Do you know the name Mosi Tatupu? Unfortunately football ended up killing him due to CTE). What would your life have been like if Christian missionaries had not shown up and changed your ancestors’ way of life, their gods, their communion with nature, and replaced it with a belief in the wrathful god Yahweh? Your ancestors should have thrown those missionaries to the sharks! If you had not learned of Jesus, then would you end up in Hell like Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and others who did not receive the word? If missionaries had not shown up, you might never know of Jesus and would not have had to worry about believing, saying and doing the right thing or face eternal punishment. The Church fills us with shame and guilt so that we will come back to them to temporarily remove the very guilt they placed on us in the first place – particularly with regard to their manic obsession with all things having to do with sex.
          .
          You asked how much into the negative I am, as though believing in something for which there is no evidence is a positive or good thing to do. I would suggest the opposite. I would suggest that those who believe in things that have no objective evidence to support them, are cheating themselves, lying to themselves, misleading themselves, and they are the ones in the negative column. I guess I’m at zero. You show me objective evidence and you’ll have my attention. Show me a single person who has successfully prayed to have their amputated limb restored and I’ll be lining up for communion. Why is it that Yahweh can cure cancer, but he can’t grow back an amputated limb? Does he have something against amputees? (grin)
          .
          If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that Yahweh was jealous of his creation. That can’t be right. How can an all-powerful being be jealous of anything? What could such a being lack? How could an all-powerful being not get everything he wanted? That would mean he’s not all-powerful. You speak of the creation of Adam, but we know today from evolution and DNA research that there was no Adam. Mankind descended from a pool of early primates numbering in the tens of thousands, not just two. The DNA research is firm on this, despite the Church’s rejection of this particular part of evolutionary science simply because it doesn’t fit their dogma.
          .
          Evolution is not something one preaches. It’s science, not a belief system. No belief is necessary for evolution because there is overwhelming objective evidence to support it. Even the last few Popes have accepted evolution, they just disagree with the DNA evidence because without a real Adam and Eve there was no original sin, and if there was no original sin there’s no need to be saved by believing, saying and doing the right thing with regard to Jesus. Evolution is something anyone can learn without preaching….
          http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01
          For DNA evidence supporting a pool of ancestors rather than just two, look up the site BioLogos.
          .
          I understand the message you refer to about Jesus instructing his disciples to spread the word – but one must ask the question, why? Jesus and Paul both said they expected the imminent end of the world. Jesus said it would come within a generation, and that some then breathing would be alive when the end came. Both of them were dead wrong. The world did not end. ““Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28) “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34). “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30). ““Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…” (Hebrews 1:1-2). ““Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11)” Paul even suggested that the end was so near that one need not bother to marry: ““Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.” (1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31) There’s more, but you get the idea. They expected the imminent end of the world and they were wrong, wrong, wrong. Why do they have any credibility? Why should we believe them?

          I’ve studied quite a bit of biblical and early Christian history. Read Robert Price, Richard Carrier, Bart Ehrman, James Tabor, Earl Butz and other historians and textual scholars and then see if you still believe the same thing. Hopefully you realize that you can’t trust anything in the bible because there are absolutely no originals. We don’t know what the original texts said. We have copies of copies of copies and these copies disagree with each other all over the place and contain countless errors, some simple spelling and grammar, others are clearly additions and edits by scribes trying to make the texts say what they needed them to say. If Yahweh inspired the bible, he didn’t inspire it well enough to make sure that the original words were preserved, which seems kind of pointless. We can’t know for sure what happened because we don’t have any original copies of any part of the bible, new or old. However if we take what we have and we compare the gospels to each other and to what we know about the history of the time, then it turns out that there is next to nothing to support a historical Jesus. Richard Carrier’s book on the historicity of Jesus is a good book to study, even if you don’t agree with his conclusions. Once you see all the problems for a historical Jesus, you can decide for yourself. I think the chance is very low that there was a real Jesus. I think Paul’s Jesus was a celestial Jesus and the author of Mark turned him into a human and the other writers just embellished from Mark. We know both Matthew and Luke got most of their content from Mark, but both edited and modified it to make their own theological points. Paul who wrote first, obviously did not know a man Jesus. He knows nothing of Jesus’ birth, family, baptism, ministry, disciples, sermons, or miracles. All Paul knows is the crucifixion and his only sources for this are Old Testament scripture and his own visions. He has no other evidence for anything about Jesus and he was the earliest writer, (50’s AD) coming a couple decades before Mark (late 60s early 70s) who, it seems, turned Jesus into a human being and invented a life for him. We can tell from the texts that Matthew and Luke are based on Mark and then John rewrote the whole thing to meet his theological goals. It’s all pretty clear when you do the research. Reading the New Testament in the chronological order in which the books were written, rather than the order in which they were placed in the bible, it’s easier to see the evolution and migration of the story from Jesus a man to Jesus a god. One can also see the migration and evolution of other ideas such as the secondary nature of women and the criminality of the Jews – both things the Catholics wanted to highlight. What we have in the bible today is the story of the winner – the Catholic Church, the owner of the orthodoxy imposed by Roman force. There were other early Christian groups, and had one of them won, Christianity would be very different. If the Ebionites had won, Christianity would be a Jewish sect. If the Gnostics had won, Jesus wouldn’t be god. If the Marcionites had won, we’d worship multiple gods. The Church decided all these competing groups of Christians were heretics and saw to it that they disappeared from history, in part by destroying all their texts – but from time to time they show up and we get to learn how other early Christians saw Jesus. For some of them, much like Paul, Jesus was a celestial being whose role was to save us from Yahweh – a wrathful secondary god, but this battle took place in the firmament, which of course isn’t real.

          Briefly – John the gospel is a completely different gospel from the others and it creates a completely different Jesus. John’s Jesus is full of signs and great works that he announces with great fanfare, while the synaptic Jesus tells everyone not to speak of his works. He does miracles and then goes into hiding. John’s Jesus speaks in long flowing passages, while in the synoptic gospels, he’s curt, and to the point. It’s a completely different character. Of course in the synoptics, Jesus isn’t God, while John starts with that very assumption. It is largely gnostic gospel and the Catholics had to redact (edit) chunks of it to make it fit their emerging orthodoxy, given that they drove the Gnostics pretty much out of existence once they had the power, thanks to Rome, to do so. Scholars can tell that the John gospel was written by 3 or 4 authors from the different writing styles and content, and the many changes that were made to it. As for Acts – most textual scholars agree that it’s a book of fiction. Some of the Acts stories come from the OT and the names are changed to make it seem like a new story. Everyone in Jesus’ life pretty much disappears after the first page. If he was a real person, surely a book about him and his ministry would tell us what happened to his family and disciples. Acts also contradicts what Paul wrote about himself several times. Paul never said anything about being converted on the road to Damascus, for example. Acts shows Paul as getting along with Peter, but Paul says the exact opposite. Acts changes Paul to look more like Peter and changes Peter to make him look more like Paul so the Church could take both movements and combine them into a single movement under a central authority they controlled. In Acts, which purports to tell us what happened after Jesus’ crucifixion, there’s no outrage from Pilate or anyone else over an empty tomb – which is ludicrous – Pilate would have thrown anyone in jail who preached about a man who escaped capital punishment, in order to find that man and make sure the sentence was carried out. However despite apostles (not disciples – Acts knows nothing of what becomes of them), being arrested for this and that, not a single person was interrogated by the authorities regarding an empty tomb. You can’t preach about a convicted prisoner who escaped the grave and not attract attention from the authorities – unless there was no empty tomb and Mark made it all up. Paul has no empty tomb and that is very damning evidence against it. If he knew about it, he surely would have written about it, but Paul did not know a historical Jesus – only a celestial demigod who lived in his visions and in Jewish scripture and apocrypha. That’s just one of many things that discredits the story.
          .
          Changing topics – do you surf, or did you as a kid? I miss surfing in Hawaii, and diving. I got SCUBA certified when I was 15, back in the early 70s. I loved the Pacific. I’d rather worship the Pacific ocean as a god, than a wrathful Yahweh who promotes genocide as a way to solve problems. Pre-Christian Hawaiians worshipped sharks – how about you guys? I don’t worship them! What do you use for internet? Have they pulled fiber to Samoa? I sell broadband satellite around the world, and for lots of islands in the Pacific, it’s satellite or nothing. I’m envying you right now, because I live in the mid-Atlantic now, and it’s starting to get cold!

  61. Anthony Karai Reply

    Thanks be to God whom his thought is beyond any human mind like that belongs to Patrick Gannon. If God exist everywhere on this world, how could a minor mind question the works of God. Jesus told us that faith can move mountains. This means, the impossible becomes possible through Gods hands. Our tiny minds is beyond Gods. May be just a tiny dot. You can not compare the ocean with the tiny drop of water in a pit that suited the tiny drop. Gods eyes are beyond any human conscience. The hope for Patrick to see truth in the miracles is just like a tiny rat trying to fit into a huge drain. Surely this won’t match. Likewise, the argument of our friend Patrick. He is trying to match himself with Gods doings. Amen!!! May God guide him to all truth.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      And your Church has never perpetrated a hoax? I opened this thread questioning whether there was a criminal act, but it appears to simply be a hoax that took advantage of a natural phenomenon. In this case, I don’t need a bigger mind than your god; I only need a bigger mind than the Bishop who perpetrated this apparent fraud.
      .
      “If God exist everywhere on this world, how could a minor mind question the works of God. Jesus told us that faith can move mountains.”
      .
      Well first question is “If God exist everywhere on this world.” I see no objective evidence for any gods existing anywhere on this world. You then ask how a minor mind could question the works of God and then you tell us that Jesus told us that faith can move mountains. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never seen any mountains moved by faith. I’ve seen them moved by dynamite and excavation equipment, or by volcanoes, but that’s about it. I guess nobody has that kind of faith…
      .
      There is no reasonable evidence presented for this so-called miracle. There are articles on the net that say the Vatican called this a miracle, but there is no confirmation of that to be found. The people who tested the sample the first time found nothing. The second group found stuff after the sample had been contaminated. The red effect is a natural phenomenon that has occurred in similar so-called “host miracles.” It’s not a miracle. Provide a link from the Vatican confirming that this was a sanctioned miracle, and their rationale for saying so.
      .
      Have you ever considered that If there is a god, surely he doesn’t want you to be played for a fool…

  62. Leo Pius Reply

    Talofa again my dear friend, Patrick! Thank you for responding and with your kind notion of changing the subject. Interestingly I wonder whether you aware that the Hawaiians somehow believe their ancestors are from Samoa. Hence I have no problem agreeing that us Samoans had the similar belief before Christianity to an extend that our people had a spiritual belief of a Superior being named ‘Tagaloa’ a similarity of Allah/Yahweh/God the Father, stage. Whom Christ Jesus –God the Son, the origination of ‘Christianity’ movement had come to reveal in person.

    Anyway answering your question on your ‘surf note’,, man I wish! I personally am afraid of the water while three of my young kids are like squids. I am an Accountant by profession and would definitely wish to see whether we can do something with your IT business by the sounds of things to help out with our developing country on that side of things.

    Anyhow I’m glad to see that you are talking more of Jesus (Christ) this time around even though that ‘trying hard notion’ of yours discrediting his existence like how you had went on with his father -whom you refer to him as a ‘wrathful god/Allah/Yahweh, perhaps because I agree with you but somehow from an opposite perspective of a ‘Jealousy God’ instead, a ea?

    With your claim of being a ‘recovered Catholic’ wondering what exactly do you mean by that and how are you now a day in relation to the Catholicism? Mainly because -Imam Sulaiman, remember him whom now happily called himself Mario Joseph explaining of his turning point away from Prophet Mohammed ‘Allah notion’ to Catholicism ‘God’s notion’? When he realised that Allah refer to his followers ‘Slaves’ contrast to Jesus Christ who wills to give his followers the power to become children of God,, refer the 12th minute 30seconds to the 13th minute of the recorded testimony I shared for you do sure sound like a busy man yourself.

    Again, I hope you don’t mind me not wish to refute you on your much detail scientific information shared already, learning of Professor John Lennox saying, ‘Nonsense remains nonsense, even when spoken by a famous scientists’ with another one ‘to the wrong person you will never have any worth but to the right person you mean EVERYTHING’. The two sayings are of the 18 Leadership Quotes and Lessons from the “God’s Not Dead” movie. Nice one to watch should you have time?

    Pretty sure after watching the concern movie then you should realise that He –Christ Jesus, as you mention; quote; ‘does miracles and then goes into hiding’ end quote, is dead wrong and am certain of it.

    Anyhow will allow you time to watch the movie and will still be around should you wish to share or ask more refuting notions simply because you mean everything to me and especially HIM the (TRINITY God).

    Anyhow back to our IT subject, we currently have fiber in Samoa with 2 mobile phone providers; namely 1. Digicel and 3. Blue Sky there a new player who called themselves NETVO but not a mobile provider. Pretty sure there is a good reason for you to visit Samoa and see what you and I can do with those broadband satellite of yours to help our developing nation, don’t you agree? Not to mention our beautiful Island weather and out of that cold whether you described, what do you think?

    Will start our next sharing session by discussing the reality of ‘cold’ compare to ‘heat’,,, or shall I leave that to you my science friend,,, testing out our instinct for we should be on the same page by now, what do you reckon?

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Hey Leo, I don’t have time for a long response, but I’ll comment on why many former Catholics refer to themselves as “recovering Catholics.”
      .
      Guilt, shame and fear are addictions for lack of a better word right now, and the Church addicts us to these things very early, indoctrinating us with tormenting tales of evil and sin and devils and Hell. These things are written into our brains as neural pathways are laid down before we are capable of critical thinking. Neurologists tell us that when neurons fire, the brain is wired. The Church wires our brains early and often, with assistance in many cases from our parents, schools, ,government and other social institutions. If instead, this “education” were to start when we are 10 or 11 for example, the number of converts would dry up in no time. After a child learns that Santa isn’t real, convincing them at that age that Yahweh and Jesus are real is going to be much more difficult, unless they’ve learned by rote memorization and haven’t learned to think critically.
      .
      Let me give you a comparison. When I was in high school, I was a gymnast and I did too many hard dive rolls to the back of my neck, eating up the disks. I had no idea I had injured myself, but starting in my 20s I began experiencing neck pain from time to time, and it slowly worsened over the decades, but it wasn’t debilitating; it was just part of life. Then in karate class one day a handful of years ago, my left arm collapsed doing pushups! What the heck. Well it turned out that I needed surgery because the nerves were being pinched. I had the surgery and several of my vertebrae were fused together. When I woke up after the operation, I was sore, but something amazing had happened that was totally unexpected. My neck pain was completely and gloriously gone. I had become so used to it that I didn’t know how much pain I was actually in. I’m sure it affected my personality to some extent at that time, but to me it was just a constant soreness. When it left, I discovered that it had really been much worse because the relief was overwhelming.
      .
      When I left religion, following multiple readings of the bible and much study, the feeling was just like that. All this shame/guilt/fear laid on me as a child evaporated into the wind, and I was filled with more joy than I’d ever had in my life. Just like my neck, I’d had no idea how much pain I was in. Just like my neck you get used to being without pain, and without religion you get used to being without fear. The problem is that those neural pathways were laid down young, and I don’t think you can ever entirely get rid of them. Flashes will hit you from time to time, then you start thinking and it all fades away again. I wouldn’t go back to that life for anything, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. In the same way I am still recovering from my neck surgery because I’m reminded of it when I turn my head and can’t go as far as I used to. I would no more go back to believing in fear-based religion than I would take that neck pain back. Life is so much better without either.
      .
      “The term “recovering Catholic” is used by some former practicing Roman Catholics to describe their religious status. The use of the term implies that the person considers their former Catholicism to have been a negative influence on their life, to be “recovered” from. The term first came into use in the 1980s.” I agree with this definition…
      .
      I read an article about Samoa putting in some solar panels with which to power an entire island – pretty cool. As for IT, if you have access to fiber, satellite will usually have trouble competing.

      1. Mrs Rosemary Volage Reply

        Dear Patrick, I recognize many of your agnostic statements as they reflect many of my own over 40 years ago. I was raised Catholic but in my early twenties I began to question the belief system I had been taught. I was not angry or confused. I was exercising parts of my frontal cortex. I was intensely curious and investigated other faiths in depth. I was also reading Nietzsche et al. This went on for several years.
        The thoughts and conclusions I came to – well the list is too long to share here.

        But nothing, in the final analysis, could logically explain to me the existence of God.

        Before I get to my point let me preface by saying that a few things had happen to me during my youth (the 1st at the age of 5) that awed and sometimes frightened me. I never told anyone about any of these events until just recently. They were private and I kept them to myself, as has been my usual way until now.

        It was Thursday night on November 8, 1979. I came in the front door and as usual the TV was on but nobody was in the livingroom. I put my stuff down on my mom’s piano and glanced at the TV.

        I violently lost my breath and feel to my knees. Silent tears poured from my eyes but I was not sad. Quite the opposite, I felt SO joyful and peaceful. The face on the screen was a negative photo of the face of Jesus on the Shroud of Turin.

        Please believe me, I had never heard of the Shroud before this. What transpired when I walked in the door happened in a matter of seconds. Until I listened for a few minutes there had been no mention of Jesus’ name. It would not have mattered. Test results and counter tests don’t matter to me.

        I knew instantaneously that the image on the Shroud is of Jesus Christ. I know it to this day.

        After my heart and mind settled down I went through a great deal of self-analysis to determine why this knowledge was SO unshakeable. Then I realized the simple truth that Faith, Hope, and Love cannot be objectively proven. Miracles cannot be proven. They all belong to a realm of existence far above any science or process our brains are capable of contemplating. Unfortunately so too are doubt, despair, and hate.

        Over the last 20 years I have faced many hardships including permanent medical issues causing paralysis and chronic pain. I have lost nearly all of my loved ones. I am the proverbial old widow who is relatively alone in the world. At least that is how others see me. But Jesus Christ, The Word of God incarnate, cares for my soul, has set me free, and carries me across the sand when times are tough.

        I am truly sorry that your indoctrination in your youth was so negative. Mine was quite positive. But I still lost my faith for many years. Maybe it’s all part of growing.

        Patrick, you may say I am deluding myself. I would have said the same 40 years ago. Now I can only wish that you would find the same delusion that is The Truth, The Way, and The Light.

        God Bless you.
        Rosemary 11/27/16

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Thank you for your note, Mrs. Volage. I like the bit about exercising your frontal cortex. Why did you stop doing that?

          I understand how internal experiences can seem to be very real; but we’ve been studying the brain for a long time and we know these kinds of experiences can be created by our brains. Though you were only a child and thought you had never been exposed to the Shroud of Turin, it’s entirely possible, if not probable, that you did, and simply forgot about it at that young age. We know that we lose many of our childhood memories and then create memories based on what we think we remember, or seeing a picture, or recalling what someone else told us. You ask me to believe you when you say you had never heard of the Shroud before, but I think that’s highly unlikely. It’s more likely that you had heard of it and your young mind simply didn’t remember. How many times do we see things that we don’t remember later? Our memories, particularly at that young age are still developing. How much, if any of this, experience did you discuss with your parents? Scientists tell us that parents have much to do with shaping childhood memories that persist. (Google NPR the forgotten childhood)
          .
          Surely you know that other people of other religions all over the world, have similar experiences relating to their gods. So-called miracles are not unique to Christianity, though the Church has insisted, at least in the past, that it’s the work of the devil when someone else outside the religion has the same sort of experience as a Christian – though I always thought it was interesting that both Satan and Yahweh/Jesus give us the same sort of “miracles.” How are we to know which one is doing the deed? It’s also interesting that neither Satan nor Yahweh/Jesus can cure amputees…
          .
          Unfortunately science is not on your side. Non-religious experts who have no personal agenda are in almost universal agreement that the Shroud is a Middle Age fake, one of about 40 that we know of today. You believing it to be Jesus’ image, certainly doesn’t make it so; just as my believing the inside of the moon is made of green cheese does not make it so! If I understand your story, you are saying you had this revelation at five years old, and you “went through a great deal of self-analysis to determine why this knowledge was SO unshakeable.” Seriously? At five years old you went through all this self-analysis? I am impressed. I have no memories of being 5 years old, but I doubt I did a lot of self-analysis at that age. And then later in your 20’s you questioned this revelation (as you should have)? Something doesn’t sound right – perhaps this self-analysis occurred in your 20’s, based on questionable childhood memories that (may have) happened 15 years earlier? Again, not very convincing, I’m afraid.
          .
          You suggest that faith, hope and love cannot be objectively proven. I disagree. Faith is essentially pretending to know something that you don’t know. However with objective evidence, your faith can be proven to be true. One could have faith that macro-evolution can occur in a flask, and lo and behold, it gets proven (recent great news!). I’m not sure what it means to “prove” hope. I hope I’ll win a million dollars. There’s nothing to prove. Hope is fine. It’s not the same as faith. It’s not about pretending to know things you don’t know or understand, which is what faith is. As for love, of course that can be proven, by the words and actions of one individual to another.
          .
          You are correct that miracles can’t be proven, because they don’t happen. We have to remember that the most likely explanation for an unexplained event is the one for which natural causes exist, such as the red microbes that colored the host that was dropped on the floor in this particular scam – in the same way this exact same thing has occurred in other places before. It’s clearly a case of natural causes. The least likely explanations are supernatural events because they are by definition the most rare and unlikely – otherwise they wouldn’t be called miracles. A true miracle would be an amputee praying back a missing limb – but Yahweh/Jesus can’t do that, can he?
          .
          I often question the value of beliefs since I think they create internal cognitive conflict when what we know (that our brain has no objective evidence for miracles, gods or afterlives), conflicts with our beliefs; but at the same time, I do ponder whether there is a benefit in lying to ourselves in this way, if the belief helps us cope with life as you indicate that it does for you. The thing is; I know other people who profess great faith, but who are miserable, unhappy people, and instead of doing something about their situation, they revel in despair and belief in an imaginary, invisible being who lives in the sky who will make everything better in the next life. I don’t think it’s healthy – but I’m not a shrink. If I was, I might suggest that you give Jesus a rest and rely on yourself to make your life more complete, given that you don’t sound very happy to me, and given the very real probability that this is the only life you will get.
          .
          Like many Christians, all your focus is on Jesus, but Jesus is God, Yahweh is God, therefore Jesus is Yahweh and if you bother to read his entire book, you’ll find that Yahweh is not a pleasant character given that he approves of, condones or commands, slavery, genocide, murder of innocents, racism, sexism, discrimination against the disabled, homophobia, wrath, vengeance and fury – all of these being human traits that civilized people decry. Additionally, if you buy into the Catholic teaching about eternal torment for failing to believe, say and do the right things, as dictated by the RCC, then the Jesus persona is even more evil than the Yahweh persona, given Yahweh put us in Sheol when we died – a state of permanent unconsciousness. Jesus sends us to Gehenna, the Jerusalem town dump, where we burn for eternity (oops, the dump is closed). Our position was not improved by the “good news” of Jesus.
          .
          I’m sorry, but I think you should return to exercising your frontal cortex and do another self-assessment, because I think you are deluding yourself. I have no need for such delusions. However, thank you for sharing your story.

  63. Leo Pius Reply

    Malo Patrick, again thank you for responding and explaining what you mean “recovering Catholic”.
    I can imagine your frustrations, I think? And it’s quite unfortunate that you seem certain that nothing can change your mind, from feeling content with your recovering position, or am I ‘not’ right?

    Perhaps I can consider myself lucky to be born into a Christian Country and a Catholic Devoted family. Pretty sure such negative notion you described had been taught but was of a minority compare to the Loving side of God. I remember myself being ‘just a name calling’ Catholic Christian but had not much thought into it until 1999 after my first participation of an eight week’s ‘New Life in the Spirit’ seminar by our Parish Charismatic movement group. It was on the 7th week when I felt my unfairness towards Gods outflow love on me yet I had little thought of it. There and then I had made a choice of loving him back.

    I wonder whether you had watched the movie ‘God’s not Dead’, I refer to on my last sharing? I see it refers to Atheist (A-“Without” + Theos –‘God’) compare to your Agnostics (A-‘To not know’ + Gnostic –‘To Know’) group, and I must admit I am a bit confused here wonder whether you can help me out a bit?

    Am I right to think that the Atheist claims that there is ‘NO God’, while your group have trouble with ‘no objective evidence’ to prove that God does exist, even the ‘afterlife notion’ you need objective evidence as well? If so then I am happy for now I’m certain I am talking to a human person not an alien, lol. Simply because it is of our human nature that will never rest until we are comfortable with whatever quest we have in life. A quest that Saint Augustine of Hippo recons it is of “God himself” for he had made us all for his like, hence his famous saying; ‘You have made us for Yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You.’

    Well perhaps you may wonder why I bother for you had made up your mind already. The simple answer is because being a Christians one claim to have a special relationship with Christ Jesus -as a person, hence our urge to help him out with his mission (making sure no one on our way is left behind) while we had a chance. So the least I could do is simply spend some time with you here while I have the chance. But of course as Jim Cavizeal testifies same with character ‘Josh Weaton’ in the movie, it will be of our individual choice that leads us to hell -in the afterlife, never of Him -the TRINITY God.

    One thing for certain though is that he had the entire patient to await us all until our last breath, wishing for us to make up our minds and take on his course. Just like that right thinking ‘criminal’ that was hanged with him on Calvary; -(gospel Luke 23:39-43, such souls Apostle Paul refers to on his 2nd letter to Corinthians 12;1-3 same as the Book of Revelation chapter 2 verse 7; “Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor – any Christian individual who holds fast to the faith and does God’s will in the face of persecution ,* I will give the right to eat from the tree of life that is in the garden of God.” ). Same as that Atheist character -Professor J. Radisson, in the movie.

    Hence I herewith try my best reason out few notions with you my dear friend with much hope that there still be a chance for you to hear Him right via my alienating human being. For I, like Him, would never dream of leaving you alone out there. Unless, of course, you chose to carry on with your so called ‘comfort zone’ and leave me alone out here?

    Anyhow as for the ‘cold notion’ I pen out last time mentioning it, I wonder whether you had any thought of it. For just as much as you and your Agnostic group wish for an objective evidence to prove the existence of God is my wondering whether you had aware that there is no objective evidence to prove that the ‘cold’ exists? Scientist (Kelvin) only has evidence of heat measuring it to as far as 458 below zero and never of ‘cold’. So in reality ‘cold’ is just a word to describe the absence of heat.

    Until next time, shall wait for more sharing from you my dear friend!

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Hi Leo. I can think of nothing aside from objective evidence that would bring me back to religion. Show me a real miracle, or better yet, an amputee who grows back a limb as a result of prayer and you’ll have my attention. The Abrahamic god is supposed to be all-powerful, but Yahweh can’t cure amputees. Why is that?
      .
      I too was born into a Christian country and a devoted Catholic family – oldest of 7 kids – trust me, we were Catholic! I went through all the normal rituals. We’d have had more kids, I’m sure, but mom finally put her foot down and told the Pope enough was enough, sin or no sin. The way I was taught was the way most Catholics were taught back in the late 50’s and 60s. I recall when eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin! I wonder what happened to all the poor slobs in Hell who ate meat on Friday before the Church (men, not gods) decided that it wasn’t sinful after all. Did they get shifted to Purgatory when the Church changed the rules, or are they still burning? (That’s a joke. Of course nobody was ever sent to Hell for eating meat on Friday because there is no Hell – there are four of them, and none of them mean Hell as we think of it today). Just think of all the unnecessary guilt and fear the Church created in those years for no good reason but to control the sheeple.
      .
      You mention your decision to start loving God (Yahweh/Jesus) back, but why would an all-powerful being need to be loved by puny humans? In the NT, Jesus says the two most important commandments are to love God with all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself. The first question is, why would an all-powerful god have to command that his subjects love him? How many parents have to command that their children love them? I never had to do that. Love is not something that can be commanded, and if someone tries to command it, that’s a sign that there’s something very wrong. That’s a clear-cut sign of an abusive relationship. The only reason love has to be commanded is because – based on the Old Testament – Yahweh is a very unsavory character with all sorts of human flaws like jealousy, wrath, vengeance, etc.
      .
      I have not watched the movie, “God’s Not Dead” but I have seen the trailer and I have seen the excerpt from the debate between the student and the teacher, and the teacher was an idiot who should have easily won the debate. Obviously the whole point was to make the teacher look like a fool – but all those arguments have excellent responses that the teacher’s character was not permitted to make in the movie. Any well educated atheist or agnostic would have destroyed the kid in a real debate.
      .
      From the standpoint of the Church, there’s no real difference between an atheist and an agnostic, since neither believes the right things according to the RCC. Atheist should be a simple word, but it’s been twisted around so it can be confusing. Technically, an atheist lacks a belief in personal gods. Some atheists, rather than lacking belief in god, believe that there is no god. That’s a fine distinction, but in my mind, the latter is a belief. I avoid the term, primarily to prevent confusion like that, but technically I am an atheist when it comes to Yahweh. You are also an atheist. Do you believe Mohammed is the last true prophet of Allah? Do you believe he flew to heaven on a winged horse? No, you don’t believe these things? Well that means you are an atheist when it comes to Islam. I am an a-unicornist and an a-fairyist and an a-flat earther.. I don’t believe in unicorns or fairies or a flat earth. Atheist is a strange word since it connotes a lack of belief in something. How many other things besides gods do we go around telling people we don’t believe by using a special word? It’s kind of strange. Generally it is not necessary to advertise what one does not believe in, except for when it comes to personal gods.

      An agnostic lacks knowledge. Gnosis means knowledge. Agnostics admit what is true for everyone, but they say it out loud. Nobody knows if there is a real god or afterlife because we lack objective evidence for these things. The difference is that agnostics admit their ignorance. Agnostics can be persuaded with evidence. I doubt I will ever go back to believing. I think unfounded beliefs are bad for our mental health since they contradict what our brains know – which is that we don’t know. I have little hope that anyone will ever be able to objectively prove the existence of Yahweh, however I leave open the possibility of “god” however that word is defined. Yahweh’s days are surely numbered. We know beyond reasonable doubt today that his foundation has washed out. There was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck, no global flood, no mass exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan. Non-religious scholars and scientists know these things today and are in almost universal agreement. Without these things, there’s no foundation for Yahweh, and if there’s no Yahweh there’s no reason for Jesus to save us from him(self).
      .
      I am not impressed by the idea that Yahweh made us for himself. What are we – toys or puppets? The mythical Adam was made of clay, like a child making a doll out of putty. You speak of helping Jesus in his mission. Why on earth would an all-powerful being need help from mere humans? Why can’t he have what he wants if he’s all-powerful? And where are the passages in the NT that speak of this “personal relationship with Jesus” thing that has become so big in recent decades. It’s also a little strange. The fundagelicals in particular go on and on about loving Jesus and having a special relationship with Jesus – it all sounds a little gay to me, particularly when men speak this way, which might explain why these religions are so homophobic!
      .
      NO. No, no. It is not a personal choice that leads us to Hell. It is extortion. When a mafia goon walks into your place of business and tells you to hand over the receipts or lose your kneecaps to a baseball bat, you are being extorted. Deciding not to pay up is not the same thing as choosing to have your kneecaps broken. The Christian message about Hell is extortion plain and simple. Nobody in their right mind would “choose” eternal torment if they really thought it existed. It’s a canned response that atheists and agnostics hear and discount all the time, because it’s totally lacking in logic, and to be honest, we’ve heard it so many times that we’re a little tired of having our intelligence insulted. The other one is that we “hate God.” How do you hate something that you don’t think exists. We don’t hate fairies or unicorns! On the other hand, who in their right mind would want to spend eternity with the Yahweh of the OT? (Pro-slavery, sexist, racist, homophobic, murders millions, discriminates against the disabled, jealous, wrathful, vengeful) – I don’t see the attraction.
      .
      You mentioned the Apostle Paul so I have to take a second and remind you that Paul does not know anything about a historical Jesus. He knows nothing of Jesus’ birth, family, baptism, ministry, miracles, sermons or disciples. All he knows about Jesus is that he was crucified, and he only knows this as a result of his own personal revelations (i.e. delusionary visions) and OT scripture. It’s not until the first gospel, that the author of Mark apparently invented Jesus the character whom the other writers embellished, edited and modified to fit their individual theologies.
      .
      I’m very happy to continue any discussion in which ideas rather than insults are being traded. You are a very polite and professional individual unlike many others believers that I encounter who are all too happy to tell me I’m going to Hell, and tell me all sorts of nasty things about myself as if I’d never heard childish insults before. I like these discussions in the event that someone actually comes up with a valid reason for me to change what I think, but it’s been years and the more I learn the more I realize that my agnosticism is the best approach to the issue. I don’t know. And neither do you or anyone else. I would expect that if there is a good god, it would reward those who used their gifts, their talents (remember the parable of the talents? What happened to the guy who didn’t use his?) to try and discover the truth, rather than blindly accepting their indoctrination at the hands of the Church. Trust me, I’m not “alone” out here. I have a pretty interesting and fulfilling life for the most part, and with the growth of the “Nones” at the expense of the Catholic and fundagelical churches, I’m less and less alone all the time.
      .
      I’m not sure I get the point about the cold. Yes, I know that cold is just absence of heat and is an arbitrary word that refers to relative temperatures. It seems like you’re asking me to prove what’s north of the north pole. It’s irrelevant because it makes no sense. I’m not the one making claims. Believers are claiming their god exists. The burden of proof is on them to prove it, and not on me to prove they are wrong.
      .
      Enjoying the chat and wishing I was on a nice warm tropical island! Take care.

  64. Harrison Roxas Delfino Reply

    Patrick, have you ever wondered you are made with all necessary things for you to live.
    If human are only here on earth, they would die because there is no food.
    Have you ever thought how your whole body is design.
    Your nose for smelling, your ears for hearing, etc.
    Dead things don’t make living things but living thing make living things.
    Science can’t even calculate the exact amount of PI.
    They can’t explain why ice is slippery.
    Why hot water freezes faster than cold water when in a refrigerator.

    The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe.
    We see a universe marvelously arranged.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Harrison have you ever studied evolution? Probably not, or you wouldn’t ask these questions. I know, more or less, in general terms how my body evolved to do all the things it can do. The Church (last four or five Popes) accepts evolution. (” In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution, provided that Christians believe that the individual soul is a direct creation by God and not the product of purely material forces” – Wikipedia). The Popes since him have accepted evolution, but as of today, the Church allows you to believe whatever you want regarding creation and evolution, as long as you come to church and put your money in the offering basket! The real problem facing the Church is that DNA evidence indicates quite clearly that modern humans evolved from a pool of early ancestors numbering in a few tens of thousands, not a single breeding pair or DNA bottleneck called Adam and Eve. There was clearly no paradisiacal garden of Eden, as these early ancestors did not wake up in a garden of delights, they woke up on the menu of other animals and struggled as hard as they could just to survive and procreate. There was no fall from grace, no original sin, no reason for Jesus to save us – and this is a huge problem for the Church. They oppose abortion because they think it sends souls to Hell since they haven’t been baptised to remove their original sin – but there was no original sin. The DNA evidence debunks this ridiculous concept. Paul did not know that Adam and Eve were mythical, and that evolution explained how we got here. Jesus apparently failed to inform him of that in his visions! Paul was the one who told us that “sin entered the world through one man” (Adam). He was wrong. (He was also wrong about the imminent end of times, so his credibility is shot).
      .
      You suggest that science can’t even calculate the exact amount of Pi. What makes you think it has an exact amount? Perhaps you slept through math class: “Being an irrational number, π cannot be expressed exactly as a fraction (equivalently, its decimal representation never ends and never settles into a permanent repeating pattern).” There are very strong theories for why ice is slippery which you can google. As to why hot water freezes faster than cold, “a team of physicists from the Nanyang Technological University in Singapore, led by Xi Zhang, have found evidence that it is the chemical bonds that hold water together that provide the effect.” We know why now. You aren’t keeping up with the latest research. Christians have this desire to say that if we don’t understand something yet, Yahweh must be responsible for it, (god of the gaps), but then we find out how things work and this god gets smaller and smaller with each new discovery.
      .
      I don’t know what not being able to “grasp the universe,” whatever that means, has to do with anything. The thing about the “marvelously arranged” universe is that we understand quite a bit about how it came to be that way and learn more every day, and we can explain a great deal – with no gods required. What has religion added to our knowledge base? HIstorically we’ve had to overcome religion in order to get to truth.

  65. Larry Reply

    Patrick,you are an ass
    Can’t you just pray,worship,and be thankful to GOD. You dont have to be a fanatic. Just a Christian believer.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Thank you for your oh so “Christian” comment, Larry. That certainly contributes to the conversation. (not)

      1. Ray Reply

        Patrick,

        I am astounded at how much time and effort you have devoted to even just this comment thread. You do a good job of being articulate and patient especially with a lot of commenters who seem to look past your points and not really address anything you have said. Ideologically, I probably align much more with the majority of posters on the thread (devout Catholic, fully abide by precepts of the RCC, etc.) but I was pretty dismayed by the lack of charity with which your completely genuine inquiries were met. I just felt it necessary to make sure that the way you presented you viewpoint is much appreciated (and in time I would be willing to discuss any relevant topic with you at length).

        Best,

        Ray

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          My goodness! Thank you for that Ray! I don’t get much “Christian charity” if you know what I mean.
          .
          Why do I do it? Because nobody gave me this kind of information when I could have really used it. Also, I try to respond to most posts directed to me. If someone is willing to engage in conversation, I’ll try to follow up. The notifications service on this forum isn’t always 100%, so I know I miss some posts, but even if what I write makes someone angry it means they are reading and maybe, just maybe they will follow up and “fact-check” me and learn something in the process.
          .

  66. Leo Pius Reply

    Talofa once again my dear friend, thank you for stating your adamant on your ‘objective evidence notion’ even though it saddens me should you keep on with it which I can only pray for a chance to reconsider your position as we carry on with our friendly conversation herewith.

    I’m glad to learn that you were born in the Catholic Church and it sounds that it was your mother that had you out of Catholicism, right? I do feel for you on your pursuit of an objective evident ‘Truth’ in order for you to believe in the “loving God”-Abraham god as you prefer. But wonder why you limit your view on the negative side?

    Never the less I also need to thank you for I now see a sign of that softening heart of yours already; quote, ‘,,comes up with a valid reason for me to change what I think,but it’s been years and the more I learn the more I realize that my agnosticism is the best approach to the issue. I don’t know. And neither do you or anyone else’, end quote.

    Now I wonder how much more would you wish to stay at your ‘I don’t know’ position before changing to the ‘Known notion’ I am sharing herewith, after I point you to Apostle Paul’s re-known explanations of ‘Idolaters punishment’ Romans 1:19-21, 19-For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20-Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21-for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.

    Wonder whether you agree that verse 21 suits your group, or is it not for your concern is of ‘objective evidence proving God’s existence’, right? Now again, I wonder whether you ever thought of the concept of ‘disproving God’s existence’ instead? For apart from your numbering notion; quote, ‘Yahweh’s days are surely numbered’ end quote, it sure is ‘no news’ to us as the Holy Bible had already warned us of such a date.

    Oh I’m sorry; I forgot you already discredit the Holy Bible! Anyway, before we move on, can I make a statement here; that the Holy Bible is referred to by the Church (and I mean the church Christ Jesus died for its establishment) as ‘Sacred Scriptures (SS) where derives out of ‘Sacred Traditions (ST)’ and both the SS and ST are referred to as Public Revelation (PR) which is one of the 3 revealing means God had revealed himself to us his created human race. The other 2 are; (1). ‘The Material Universe’and (2).‘The Natural Moral Law’.

    Obviously the Universe was never derived out of any Big Bang Theory as most cosmologists thought out for God was its Divine Artist. Famous Steven Weinberg’s description of the Big Bang Theory state that 98% of the Universe existence happens in 3 minutes and it sure in-line with a Divine intervention notion, don’t you think? Even Richard Dawkins queried mind famous asks of ‘who created God’ for it only make sense if God ‘had been created’ notion stands when comparing to the ‘un-created’ God. Which is why Christ Jesus was necessary, revealing Him to us.

    I know it’s a circular sequence of queries, just like that famous Philosophy notion regarding the Chicken and an Egg, which comes first, ‘the Chicken’ or ‘the egg’? Lol!
    I wonder whether you can appreciate my logic reasoning in answering the above notion; that it was this un-created God faithfulness to his multiplying human race why he created the Chicken for His human race to be feed upon. And since he wished for his Human race to continue living hence the need for an egg to be produced by the Chicken, don’t you agree?

    As for ‘The Natural Moral Law’ notion, well most definitely it goes together with our God-given reasoning. For without God we can never recognize the demands of any eternal moral law. Many people refer to it as the “voice of conscience” in which God speaks directly to our hearts. Note, when I mention the idea of a ‘Jealous God’, I had meant of it ‘in the positive side of things’ never of ‘the negative’.

    You ask of my ‘loving back notion’ for you perceive the all powerful God need not to be loved. But believe me it is of His love why he created the Universe then us, his created human race. The Evil never created anything hence his ‘negative jealousy’ notion making sure his followers are reminded of their ‘guilt’ where does leads one ‘to fear’ God, or to the furthest position away then choose not to love him back.

    I see you disagree with me when I state that it is of ‘our choice’ that leads us to Hell, agreeing on to Jim Cavizeal’s testimony. And I’m sorry if I insult your intelligence by saying so? But the truth of the matter is we are trying to prove that God’s love is for real. And our only way back to Him is by believing in Christ Jesus –God’s 2nd Personification. Hence his need of my help, making sure you are helped for he sure does loves you and you meant everything to Him. Come on, love is never a contractual issue!

    And like you, quote; ‘I have little hope that anyone will ever be able to objectively prove the existence of Yahweh, however I leave open the possibility of “god” however that word is defined’ end quote, I wish you’ll find in your heart the need allow God the Holy Spirit a chance to enlighten you of His real existence.

    Anyhow, glad to note that we are on the same page with the understanding that ‘cold’ is just an arbitrary word that refers to relative temperatures. And its relevance is to state the fact that ‘cold’ notion needs no objective evidence to prove its existence for there is no such thing as ‘cold’. Of course we need not to go further into North pole for we will end up in the South pole, he,he,he.

    Like you i am enjoying our chatting herewith for it sure enlightens my view of the matter as well. Hope you are of the same,, until next time, don’t you think?

    And before I pen off this time I wish to thank Harrison Roxas Delfino and Larry together with all other friends whom I read of your sharing on this form and needs to remind us all that our master Christ Jesus’s had done it all. Therefore all we need to do is carry it on. Just like how he reminds us on this 7th date in December 2016 where he reminds us of Saint Ambrose, Bishop and Doctor of the Church {Lectionary: 183; 1st reading Is. 40:25-31, Responsorial Psalm Ps. 103 with Gospel MT 11:28-30.} [gospel verse 28- “Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. 29-Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. 30-For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.”

    Let’s help our dear friend Patrick Gannon home just as our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus had commission us all in His Mystical Body, shall we?

  67. John Reply

    hey Patrick it seems science to you is infallible and the only source of evidence but as I see it you do not need any proof even if heaven was to open as full day light. Science is now somewhat your “god” some things are beyond inductive and deductive thinking and your logic. As a simple example; there is no scientific evidence that Patrick Gannon ever existed and it just a computer program which people here are responding to. If you are really human give full scientific evidence with reference to an authentic source of such evidence.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Hi John. NO, science is not infallible. Science works because it knows that its not infallible. Science is a process, a mechanism used to discover the truth about our universe. “Science,” a process, should not ever be confused with “scientists,” who may hold personal beliefs. Science relies on observation, experimentation, prediction, and other mechanisms to provide objective evidence, preferably compelling objective evidence for something. The process of science never “proves” something, but it adds to the evidence until it makes sense to act as though these things are proven. However it can only take a single exception to disprove a theory. If someone finds a human skeleton at the same geological level as a T Rex, then in addition to Nobel prizes, movies and book deals for the person discovering this, the theory of evolution would be in jeopardy. Einstein’s theories of relativity could still be demonstrated to be wrong at some point in the future, but we act as though they are proven, because they work, otherwise your GPS wouldn’t work. Science gives us the information with which to make the most logical and rational decisions. Religion does nothing of the sort. Religion generally starts with conclusions: God exists. That’s a conclusion with no objective evidence to support it. Science doesn’t start out saying “God doesn’t exist” and attempt to prove that. Science has no idea. Science doesn’t care. Science only seeks truth about our universe, and if, over time, what science discovers contradicts the conclusions held by religion – that God exists – well that’s a problem for religion, not for the process of science.
      .
      If evidence of heaven appeared, I would certainly take notice. First I would have to question my own sanity and ensure that what I am seeing or experiencing isn’t a product of my brain, and that there is direct evidence in various complementary forms, with which to confirm that what I was seeing or experiencing was indeed “heaven.” How would I know if some advanced species visited us from elsewhere and was creating this “heaven” thing? Only a few strands of DNA separate us from apes. A species with a similar evolutionary advantage over us would be indistinguishable from gods. There would be plenty of reason to question this “heaven” but it’s a moot point, because right now we have no evidence to work with and no reason to assume it exists given that lack of evidence. Why should it be taken seriously other than fears that one will be punished for not believing in it?
      .
      As for evidence of my existence, you must be new to the internet. There is more than enough information on my FB page to learn enough about me to confirm I am a real person, and contact me to make an appointment to talk in person, and decide for yourself. [But don’t show up without calling or messaging first…]
      .
      Interesting challenge though, but think about it. If I had the computer skills to create a program that could pretend to be me and write what I write… wow, I’d be world famous. If there is an example of a computer program out there that could recreate what I generate on this blog, for example, I would like to learn more about it. That would mean AI has gone to a much greater level than I had imagined. Can you provide such an example? Do you know any programmers who could create such a program?
      .
      On the other hand, more and more scientists are musing the possibility that our entire universe is just a simulation running on a big computer somewhere; in which case, someone did do a pretty good job of programming…

      1. John Reply

        Patrick, Patrick, Patrick why would I use social media to prove someone’s existence? All I know is until you give scientific evidence you still don’t exist. How science and religion works to prove anything is not what I pointed out to. Science is a human device by humans and ever changes so why would you rely on it? The very observations, hypothesis and conclusions (by humans) is full of flaws. you pointed out that scientists are the ones who are prone to error and as such they are the ones who endorse the theories until proven wrong. How many scientific theories have been proven wrong and inaccurate? As for the computer program, I did not say you designed it, I said it is a possibility that you were designed so. When you described science you mistook science for the scientific process and indeed the scientific process is what I was implying by inductions and deductions. some things are beyond that capacity.

        1. Pedros Reply

          There you have it Patrick.Thank you John. The secret word here is Freedom. Our God wants us to leave in freedom. Only your faith determines who you are.

  68. Joey Reply

    O Great St. Stephen, the scriptures tell us that your face was like an angel’s as you witnessed to the truth of Christ.

    Please ask the Most Holy Trinity to fill my soul and the souls of all my brothers and sisters throughout the world with a deep hunger for the truth that comes from the Heart of Jesus, and also with the loving courage to embrace and profess the truth even amid difficulties, confusion, and persecution.

    May the serenity and peace which were yours at the hour of your stoning be ours as well as we wait in hope for the coming of the Lord Jesus who lives and reigns forever and ever.

    Amen.

  69. Karen Reply

    Hi Patrick, I can see where you are coming from and understand your need to ask questions and have evidence as I too am not one to blindly follow things I hear or have just read etc! as that’s quite ludicrous! I often read things like the above and just keep an open mind, as I like to see studies and references etc too. When you write a paper at uni (for example) if you don’t have a good and detailed reference list to verify your statements then your statements/argument lose all credibility.. I get that. I was brought up a Catholic, but I always questioned EVERYTHING as I was brought up to think for myself and society/ school institutions etc. objectives are to develop our critical minds and literacy skills, to use our brains! discern fact from fiction. I always read everything! I asked questions, researched every religion, philosophy etc.. people failed to give me REAL proof. “It just is? Why do you question?” God does want us to question and seek Him. I noticed something was fuelling me to always search? Why ask why or what if there is nothing, why would we have that innate need? or even care? What does your heart say Patrick..as I had this feeling in my heart and soul that someone/something, my maker was always there. The fact that we are here is miracle enough! creation is a miracle, it seems logical that something/ someone created everything. If I am just a human and have the capacity to question and create and use my critical mind to investigate, evaluate and have an opinion on various subjects then imagine the abilities of the one who created me!! Anyway, in a nutshell 🙂 I followed my heart, whilst using my critical mind and my heart lead me to do certain things- number one was finding my old rosary beads, I learnt how to use them and then miracle after miracle unfolded for me as my faith grew. Miraclea that I can question and that can objectively stand on their own. I saw Jesus, in a way that’s hard to explain, through my heart and I was shown that he is the truth. Literally that is hard to “get” but combined with the gifts the Holy Spirit gave me and showed me I “get it” so now I read the Bible with open eyes and I get it. Thank God i searched and searched and didn’t just take the word of others! I pray Patrick that you see what you need to see, that you can truly understand and feel what faith is. Faith has driven me, faith to me is an “inner knowing” my inner knowing has now been confirmed with true, miracles I have witnessed, so my faith has been confirmed within an earthly, science governed context. The only way you will find what you are looking for here is by dealing directly with the source you are seeking.. I.e. Your maker/God and to develop a relationship with Him and see for yourself.. don’t assume too much about others, and that no miracles exist because you haven’t seen any yourself yet.. keep an open mind and ask and wait.
    Good luck Patrick, you have been posting here for a reason. 👍

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      I hope that the reason is to provide information and open minds to critical thinking. You refer to faith as “inner knowing” but I must dispute that. It is just pretending to know things you don’t know. Real “knowing” requires objective evidence. People had an “inner knowing” that the world was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe. We can’t trust that “inner knowing.”
      .
      Using a rosary to meditate – mumbling mindless Hail Mary’s (boy when I was a kid, I could whip those off so fast!), probably has a useful benefit, calming and reducing stress; but you could buy New Age crystals and get the same effect. Clearing your mind, learning mindfulness, meditating – all that is good for us. Believing things that we know we have no evidence for, on the other hand, is likely to set up internal cognitive conflict that creates the stress we’re trying to get rid of in the first place!
      .

  70. Kathy L. Reply

    Patrick: You are a believer – in words and manipulation through them. You seem to enjoy using your words to stir up doubt to manipulate others’ belief/s. I am not an experienced researcher and it seems you believe you are. My religion, Catholicism, teaches a relationship with Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Second person of the Trinity. All of the teachings require Faith in them to make sense. Faith is a gift of God and is nourished by learning about Jesus and loving myself and others as He does. This has been a life-long journey for me. I knew I believed in God since I was about 4 or 5 years old and I cannot offer you proof as to how I know that fact. I had yet to be informed of Jesus or how to get to know Him. I grew up in a very unstable, abusive home and suffered much (including attempted murder by a stepfather). I say this not to garner sympathy or profess to you I know why I was given faith. Miracles in our church are sometimes personal (private) and sometimes public. I have been blessed with MANY private miracles. I cannot offer the churches documentation sources for the public ones, but I have witnessed public ones. As an intensive care Registered Nurse for 44 years, I saw people healed before and after death when there was no explanation definable by the current medical venue. I’ve heard Doctors remark about xrays totally cleared of deformities/diseases after the person was prayed for. Prayer is a miracle. It also requires Faith. I feel sad when I run into people so convinced that God is desperately trying to convince them to believe in Him. He’s God. He doesn’t need our faith, we do. It’s our choice – to love or not. Only a God who loves appreciates someone who loves. If you are trying to win an intellectual game with God, you’ve lost already. In my long journey in life, I heard an expression that helped me get over all the “whys”, “why me’s” and “prove it’s” I uttered. The expression was: “the longest journey a person ever travels is the 18 inches from his head to his heart”. When you travel to your heart, God is there waiting. Always – for everyone. God Bless you, always and all-ways, Patrick. Peace.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Well Kathy, I do the best I can to avoid beliefs, preferring to “think that” rather than to “believe in.” I find that this yields more useful results for living life in our physical matter reality. Perhaps you can explain to me how something immaterial like the soul can move the particles, affect the particles in a host, in order to cause it to do something you consider to be miraculous (but which is simply the result of a known bacterial organism)? How does something immaterial move something material? If such a force existed, we’d have found it by now. If such a force existed, someone would have grown back an amputated limb by now. I’ll bet you never saw that in your nurse’s practice, did you? Does Yahweh-Jesus hate amputees, or do his abilities not extend that far?
      .
      If you lived in India or Pakistan or Tanzania, you would also find such “miracles” by people praying to other gods. Sometimes there are spontaneous cures. Just because we can’t explain them yet, doesn’t mean god did it. It just means we can’t explain it.
      .
      You suggest that faith is a gift from Yahweh-Jesus, but I apparently did not receive this gift, nevertheless, I assume you believe that I will be tortured in hellfire for billions and trillions of eternal years, even though I was designed in such a way that I require evidence before believing in unicorns, fairies, gods and afterlives. Why are you whining to me? Why don’t you ask Yahweh-Jesus why he didn’t give me the gift of faith? Why don’t you ask him why I went and used the gifts of intellect, reason, critical thinking, logic, instead of burying them in the garden like the dude in the story of the Talents? Ask him why he’s going to punish me for using those gifts, while he failed to provide me with the gift of pretending to know things I don’t know.
      .
      Wait a minute. First you said it was a gift. Faith is a gift, but then later you say it’s a choice. If I didn’t get the gift, how is it that I have any choice? I can’t “choose” to believe something – I have to have some good reason for it. What good reason do I have to believe in things for which there is no objective evidence? And why would you worship a god evil enough to send me to eternal torment when he failed to give me the gift of faith that would have saved me, instead giving me gifts that I was supposed to bury in the garden? It seems to me that I’m being treated pretty shabbily by your god. Having read his book, I don’t really like him very much and I can understand why he has to “command” that his subjects love him.. What parent among us has to “command” that our children love us, and how valuable would such a love be?
      .
      You have a few choices. Either (1) Yahweh-Jesus is evil, or (2) your Church lied about Yahweh-Jesus, or (3) Yahweh-Jesus simply does not exist. Given that we know today that there was no six day creation, no two-person DNA bottleneck (original sin), no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan, the foundation for the Abrahamic gods having been washed out, the most logical conclusion is that Yahweh-Jesus simply does not exist. And that’s great! It means we can let go of all that shame, guilt and fear and get on with fixing our world.

  71. Kathy L. Reply

    Patrick: I said “Faith is a gift of God and is nourished by learning about Jesus and loving myself and others as He does.” God gives the gift of faith to everyone. It’s our CHOICE to exercise the gift. Like we exercise our muscles or they atrophy and become useless. But the seed of faith is always there until our last breath. If you choose not to use your faith, God still leaves the seed within you. The more compassion, charity, etc. (the spiritual ‘muscles’ of faith) I use and express, the more I grow in compassion and charity. This is what all the saints in Heaven did while on earth. But, again, this defies all the logical arguments you choose to throw at me and the others in this thread. You said, “I assume you believe that I will be tortured in hell fire for billions and trillions of eternal years, even though I was designed in such a way that I require evidence before believing in unicorns, fairies, gods and afterlives. Why are you whining to me?”. I assume no such thing. Only God knows the choices you make and how long you continue to rebuff Him. That’s between you and Him. I don’t believe I was in any way “whining”. You apparently processed my response that way. I was taught to never ASSUME anything about facts or people…if you do, “You Make An A** Out Of You And Me”. Using the gifts of intellect, reason, critical thinking, logic, is well and good and to be admired as long as you don’t assume you already have the answer. Your assumption that you know better than thousands of others with faith is a flaw and flirts with presumption. All the logic in the world can’t reveal an unexpected answer if you assume you know better than all others. It smacks of arrogance. As far as “we can let go of all that shame, guilt and fear and get on with fixing our world” says that’s what you are coming to the table with. The only way I plan on “fixing” our world is to love, help and appreciate everyone God sends into my life everyday. If you have read His book as you say, then you know he says to love others as I have loved you. That’s how I grow my faith. He didn’t say use logic to talk others out of their faith or to prove that you are right about it all. I wish you all good and His Blessings always and all-ways, Patrick.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      So Yahweh-Jesus gives all of us the gift of faith? I find that hard to accept. I started off with faith, but lost it as I learned more and more about my religion. I know many people who never believed in God. They appear not to have ever received this gift. Just as I never “chose” to be heterosexual, I don’t recall “choosing” to abandon my faith – it just slipped away as I came to understand that there was no foundation for it. I never got up one morning and “chose” to be an agnostic. It just happened over time. The only way to go back would be a) to erase everything I’ve learned from my brain, or b) be presented with some objective evidence. It’s not an issue of “choice.”
      .
      Sure, I could say the words. I could walk around, like many people do, pretending to believe in some god, but that would be a lie. I could say the words, but they would have no meaning. I do not believe in one god, creator of heaven and earth, I do not believe that Jesus, if he existed in the first place, was any more of a god than you and I are. I do not believe in virgin births outside of artificial insemination, I do not believe I need to be baptized in order to avoid Hell because I know there is no DNA evidence for the 2-person DNA bottleneck required for original sin to be valid. I cannot just “choose” to believe these things. Sure I can say the words, and lie to myself and whoever else is listening, as I suspect a great many Christians do, but if your god is real, he knows what I’m thinking (a damnable invasion of privacy), so that would be a waste of time anyway. Yahweh-Jesus did not give me the “gift of faith,” instead I got the gifts of logic, reason, critical thinking, etc. My gift is far more valuable to me than the gift of pretending to know things I don’t know.
      .
      I and other non-believers exercise care, compassion and charity, but this does not result in a pretending to know things we don’t know. It’s simply about being a good person without expectation of reward or fear of punishment. I’m sorry my reference to “whining” bothered you so much – it was just a literary tool. If you are a good Catholic, then you must believe (choose to believe?) that those who don’t believe, say and do the right things, as dictated by the RCC will go to Hell for eternal punishment. That’s what the Church teaches, right? If you say you are a Catholic and believe and follow the catechism, then you have to assume there is little chance of me avoiding Hell, no matter how good a person I am. But, you are correct, in that I don’t know what you believe, and I know most Catholics don’t believe everything the Church teaches, otherwise there would be a heck of a lot more little Catholics running around and lower sales of contraception!
      .
      No my presumption that I know better than thousands – make that millions – of others with faith is not a flaw, just as it was not a flaw when Galileo told us the earth went around the sun or Bruno told us that the stars in the sky were suns potentially with planets going around them. The people of faith were dead wrong, regardless of how many of them there were. Based on the scientific knowledge we’ve amassed, I certainly feel confident in saying that I know better than anyone who thinks the earth was created in 6 days, that there was a 2-person DNA bottleneck, that there was a global flood, that there was a mass migration from Egypt and that there was a conquest of Canaan. I’ve done the research, and I know the prevailing opinions of the people who know these subjects and uncovered the truth about them with objective, empirical evidence, and I respect their unbiased opinions over those of self-serving clergy whose livelihood depends on deceiving sheeple, and insisting that this washed away foundation still exists.
      .
      What strikes me as presumptuous, is for the Church and its believers to propose all these things without a scrap of objective evidence. What is truly arrogant is to pretend one knows the mysteries that have not been resolved, such as how the universe and life started, and the ‘hard question’ of consciousness. This is really all that’s left to your god after everything else he was responsible for was determined to work just fine without him. Figuring out how the universe started is probably going to be difficult. Figuring out consciousness and the start of life, we’re well on the way to, and will figure these out in time, leaving practically nothing for your god to do.
      .
      I’ll be the first to admit that there are some great passages in the bible. (Keep in mind Jesus’ sermons about treating people right were directed to fellow Jews, not gentiles). The idea that we should love others and do unto others, as we would have done to ourselves can be found in every religion and philosophy. It’s certainly not unique to Christianity, and wasn’t unique to Jesus – he was quoting Leviticus. What’s most telling is that Yahweh-Jesus has to COMMAND that we love him. What parent ever has to command their children to love them? That tells you right off the bat, that there’s something to be feared about this god. You are right about one thing. Yahweh did not use logic to talk others out of their faith – he told his followers to massacre them instead. Fortunately, none of that really happened, and the sooner the Jews admit it, the sooner we can get on with some sort of mideast peace plan.

  72. Anne Reply

    Every single day, I pray for atheists and agnostics.
    We need to pray for Patrick.

    I was raised Catholic, but turned away from God for personal reasons. Deep inside, I felt guilty, dirty.
    Then, my life changed. I realized, guilt stemmed from disbelief. I deemed myself agnostic.
    After time, I found God again. My life changed for the better.
    There are still times I doubt, but know the devil is doing ‘its’ dirty deeds. Tempting.

    I read many comments by atheists. Ironically, atheists discuss God more than Christians.

    In 1994, I heard about a photo of the ‘weeping, Virgin Mary, ‘Theotokos’ at a Greek Orthodox Church in Cicero IL.
    I attended.
    BTW, two weeks before seeing the photo, I was diagnosed with a spinal tumor. Doctors didn’t know if was cancerous or benign.
    Anyway, the photo was amazing. There was no way it was a hoax. No way. A solo photo on a stand.
    We were given Q-Tips that were touched with Mary’s tears.
    There wasn’t any charge, no one asked for donations.
    1994 was the last time the photo wept. Unfortunately.

    The tumor was removed, and thank God, benign. I’m not saying that I was miraculously cured, but we never know.

    God Bless everyone.

  73. Carlos Garcia Reply

    Patrick Gannon is just another Thomas. Don’t even bother with him my Christian brothers and sisters. Christ himself would have to come to him and do the same thing he did to Thomas. His science will never and can never explain these miracles fully. Like I told other only- science believers, “the day science can create a human from dirt like God did,” then I will turn to science-only too.

  74. Alkanse Zabrinski Wawatchinanggo Reply

    It seems that you are ignorant of how an investigative procedures to be done before the Church proclaims such miracle. If you are well educated and reader then read more and search more or I will tell you how it is done like a grader.

  75. John Reply

    When we take our last breath this mystery will be solved. For only one of us the truth will be very sad. God if the believer dies and there really is nothing else, they have lived a life pleasing to the God we love and that’s the end of the story. If the non-believer is wrong, a life of eternal hell awaits.

  76. frank zappa Reply

    Where is Patrick Gannon? I love to see his reply, till he can convince everyone of his explainations…

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Anne, please explain to me how something immaterial can affect the particles in your body in order to heal your tumor. We understand all the things that affect particles, and there are no magical forces needed to explain anything. You were very lucky.
      .
      Akanse, I don’t know who your comment is directed to, but the Vatican has had plenty of time to officially call this a miracle, but to the best of my knowledge they have not done so, because this “red” substance is very well understood to be natural in origin. Also if you go through this thread you will find sources from me that essentially debunk the so-called miracle.
      .
      John why is it that Christians never try to tempt non-believers with heaven. They never try to tell us what we’ll be missing. Instead they always default to telling us we’ll go to Hell. That’s so Christian. How great could heaven be? Apparently Satan and several other angels did not find heaven to be so pleasing. Why is that? If heaven is so wonderful, why would anyone leave it or question its ruler (unless that ruler is an unjust tyrant, which of course is the way the bible describes Yahweh-Jesus. How do you know that a life of eternal hell awaits the non-believer? What evidence do you have for this? Perhaps god, if such exists, actually rewards those who used the intellect, logic, reason, and critical thinking skills some of us were endowed with, and perhaps he punishes those who bury those “talents” in the garden. Read the parable of the talents and see what happened to the guy who didn’t use the gifts he was given.
      .
      Frank, what in particular would you like me to reply to?

      For some reason, even though I always check the box to notify me of new comments and posts, many times I don’t get notified. This blog engine leaves a lot to be desired.
      .

  77. Nora Reply

    Patrick Gannon, a very good Irish name. My grandmother’s maiden name was Grannon. She was a good Catholic also.

    Patrick, it comes down to faith, “a strong belief or trust in someone or something “. I believe in Jesus Christ because not only do I believe in what the Bible teaches but I have also heard his voice. I don’t need anyone to believe me. I just know when I die I will be greeted by Jesus himself. Because I have faith in Him. You either believe or don’t believe. It’s that simple.

    God Bless.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Thank you Nora. Faith has a couple definitions. One of them is “trust” but trust is usually based on something. We trust someone because we have good reason to do so based on past behavior, etc. The definition of faith that most people mean however boils down to something pretty simple. It is pretending to know things we don’t know. None of us can know with certainty that a man named Jesus ever existed. There is good reason to think he may have been a celestial demi-god, not a real flesh and bone historical person. Paul, our first author of the NT does not know a historical Jesus. He does not know of a virgin birth, family, baptism, disciples, ministry, miracles or sermons. All he knows is the crucifixion and he only knows this through visions and old scriptures (some of which are not in the Torah). Having faith in Jesus, is just pretending to know there really was a Jesus. There may have been, but there’s no objective evidence for it.

      In any event, Jesus is moot. We know today that there was no six day creation (the Church agrees), no two-person DNA bottleneck (an issue of great concern to the Church today), no global flood (the Church agrees), no mass Exodus from Egypt and no conquest of Canaan (I don’t know the Church’s position on these items). These pillars constitute the foundation for Yahweh-Jesus, and they’ve all washed out. There was no original sin, thus no need for Jesus to make our condition worse than it was to begin with.

      In the old days, everyone good and bad alike went to Sheol where they were essentially dead. Some Jews believed that they were dead forever, others believed at the end of time they would be wakened, judged and the good rewarded with a renewed garden of paradise, and the bad simply destroyed. After the “good news” of Jesus, we are judged the instant we die, and the good get the eternal boredom of heaven (you have to wonder why Satan rebelled), or if found wanting through failing to believe say and do what celibate virgins dressed in robes dictate that we should believe and do – eternal torture, rather than simply being destroyed. How is this the “good news”? How has our condition improved?

  78. Liliana Reply

    My understanding, Fred, is that when Jesus said: it is finished. He might have meant that His work at that time was done, his human presence at that time was done, but that does not mean that He can not be present in the Holy Host at every mass and wherever He pleases. We, humans accept only what our eyes can see, but does it only exist what our eyes can see? We might be wrong.
    According to what I have seen, and not only myself, but lots of people have been witnessed to such miracle, God wanted to present Himself in the Holy Host so that we, witnesses might give testimony of what we have seen: the marvelous works of God!
    I said: a constant sacrifice because I have witnessed it, during the consecration of the bread and wine and also before the mass.
    First, I thought: oh, we need this old priest for that miracle to happen.
    Then, the same miracle had happened before the mass, when the priest was going to check the chalice and dish to have everything ready for the mass. Any explanation?
    My best answer would be that God is present everywhere.
    We can not understand this in our ‘limited mind’ , with our limited knowledge, of trying to explain things scientifically, but there is more to that, I believe so.
    We can not even interpret what has been written in the Bible. We interpret it in our own way.
    God is all wisdom. Our wisdom might be ‘so limited’ that we can not understand the grandiosity of His Mighty Presence.
    I don’t believe that I am blaspheming, I am a witness. I might not understand the meaning of Jesus when He said: it is finished, or give a right explanation, but I am just giving my own explanation or conclusions of things I have witnessed.
    We are like a speck in the air, in is magnificent ocean, which is the earth.
    Maybe our ‘knowledge’ can be compare likewise.
    Why I have had the grace of witnessing such miracle? I do not know it. But what I know is that it is certainly to let people know of the Presence of God, of Christ.
    Sincerely,
    Liliana

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Note that Jesus said “It is finished” in only one gospel. The last one written, the one that changes the very nature of Jesus, from a rather reclusive preacher who tells others not to report what they saw of his miracles, to a brash and bold, evangelistic Jesus telling people to spread the word of his miracles far and wide. The two Jesus personalities are very different. Of course we’re talking about the gospel of John here, which most think was written at least 60 years after Jesus death (assuming there actually was a historical Jesus).

      Why does Jesus have three different sets of “last words”? Matthew and Mark have one ending, Luke another, and John a third. Clearly they can’t all be right. Some will claim that he said all these things, but that would mean inventing a fifth gospel that we don’t have. Inquiring minds want to know….

      1. gladman mundingi Reply

        Hey people, this thread was designed so that Patrick blogs for a living. the more you post and click the more Patrick gets his money, don’t waste your time posting and hoping you will be meaningful to him in any way. I agree with John who said that Patrick could be an AI program with a made up identity

  79. Patrick Gannon Reply

    Gladman Mundingi, I sure wish I was getting that money! I could use it right now. I have a tax payment coming up.

    I just checked up on this story again, to see if there had been any update. The original post implied that the Vatican had approved this farce as a miracle, but it didn’t specifically say so. Other articles have claimed that the Vatican confirmed this as a miracle. I can find no evidence that the Vatican ever confirmed this. I would very much like to see a link or source that confirms it, if it’s true.

    I think the local Bishop called it a miracle so that he could get pilgrims to show up and leave money. I think it’s all a scam, or result of simple scientific ignorance of this particular phenomenon caused by a known microbe. Prove me wrong. Start by confirming that the Vatican confirmed this as a miracle. This phenomenon of red mold is well understood, so I doubt the Vatican was stupid enough to confirm that it was a real miracle, but prove me wrong. Provide confirmation if you can. Why was the story never updated? The Vatican probably told the Bishop to shut up, so as not to make a fool of the Church.

  80. A'bii Reply

    I am so sorry for the long argument. though i have not finish reading them all. But, can we really (human brains) argue God out? unless for fun. otherwise, I advise; believe, if you do believe and don’t believe if you don’t. Believing or not believing does nothing to God but to u who believe and who also don’t. I and U may get diverted any time if we don’t pay attention. We are host. I and you can host good or bad. Just be u. Knowingly or unknowingly that, Every one will give an account @ every end. “Conversion belongs to God.”

    Help the in need. Not arguing!

    Thank you all.

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