If the Catholic Church is the true Church, why is it that Evangelical Protestants are more successful in making converts?

Full Question

If the Catholic Church is the true Church, why is it that Evangelical Protestants are more successful in making converts?


Success in making converts doesn’t necessarily prove the truth of a religion. If it did, then Mormonism and the faith of the Jehovah’s Witnesses would have to be the truest forms of Christianity since they’re growing even faster than Evangelical Protestantism.

Failure to make converts doesn’t disprove a religion’s claim to truth either. Only a small minority of Jesus’ contemporaries accepted his message, yet this didn’t refute Christ’s messianic claims.

Why have Evangelicals been so successful lately in making converts? Because they’re making better use of their partial truth than Catholics are making of their complete truth.

It’s like the Jews and the Samaritans. God revealed himself to Israel and entrusted to it his commandments. Yet in the parable of the Good Samaritan (Lk 10:29-37), it was a Samaritan, someone regarded as defiled, who actually carried out God’s commandments.

God worked through an obedient Samaritan, a man outside the salvific covenant community, rather than through a negligent priest or Levite.

Similarly, Evangelicals are doing more with less, and Catholics are doing less with more. When Catholics wake up to this reality, we’ll also make converts. It’s time we had, as Chesterton put it, not a Church which will move with the world, but a Church which will move the world.



  1. Sonia Reply

    I will tell you yyy there go to this church there ar telling people call no one farther and there ar calling the Catholic Church all the time brain washing them we tell them the truth and it hurts a lot of people and we ar not so easy going as there ar we stick to the truth I have been to these churches and listen to them I don’t like the way there work

    1. Ed M. 3rd. (@edm3rd) Reply

      When was the last time local bishop pointed out let alone promoted faith teachings on Birth control etc..

    2. Susan Reply

      The movie Spotlight is a good start. The persecution of anyone not being Catholic. Makes Catholics appear that they are evil.

    3. Teriqua Jones Reply

      Sonia, That was the longest, most nonsensical sentence I’ve read online.

      1. Greg Reply

        Teriqua Jones: Nothing she writes makes sense.

    4. Teri Reply

      What are you trying to say?

    5. Debbie Reply

      you nailed it Sonia, I agree with you 100%

    6. Rex Reply

      Catholic Church is the only church and the only church that can true itself all the way to Christ. So if Christ is God and he promised the church that the gates of hell won’t prevail then who are you to say God is a liar? Seriously. Great accusation here. Maybe you should check out what the real Church that was instituted by Christ teaches before you yap out the stupid lame accusations. That just shows how well you are Not reading the Catholic book called the Bible! Sheesh.

      1. Rob Adams Reply

        The RCC got its start in the fourth century by the Roman government as a political/religious organization to control the masses. It has no ties to true Christiamity or Christ Himself.

      2. Lisa Agosta Reply

        The catholic church didnt read revelations where it says not to add or take away from,the scripture. Right call no one father. No such thing as purgatory etc read scripture. You have to see the issues yourself

        1. WALT C Reply

          Since the Bible didn’t exist when John wrote Revelations, he was only referring to his book when he wrote no one can add to it. It was included with the other books that make up the bible.

          1. Isaiah's Cry

            Actually, it’s also in the OT. Proverbs 30:6 “Do not add to His words,
            Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.” If you think it’s okay to add to God’s Word, feel free. You’ll be judged as a liar.

    7. James M Reply

      Evangelicals are flourishing because they are led by men of God; Catholics are led by men – if they are men – of bureaucracy, who couldn’t evangelise their way out of a paper bag if their lives depended on it. But, boy, can they woffle ! (Some people would use a much less polite term.)

      1. rizal Reply

        evangelicals are successful becuase they use lies about the catholic church to lure people away from Christ church leads them to hereries of invented protestant doctrines.

        1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

          ROFL. Yeah, why are you defending an apostate church that teaches false doctrines….and then accuses Christians of lying. Oh yeah….because we know that the father of lies is your father.

        2. Isaiah's Cry Reply

          Here’s a bit of truth for ya….Catholicism is a man-made organization created centuries after Jesus walked the earth, as a political/religious organization to control the masses, especially the ignorant ones. Hence why their original Bibles were written in Latin, a language only known among well educated people, so that the peasants wouldn’t know all the lies they were spreading. Catholicism has not connection with Jesus, or the True Church, but is built upon lies and false, anti-biblical doctrines. They promote necromancy, idolatry, and deifying humans.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            I agree with much of that.
            The problem is you speak of things that are “anti-biblical doctrines.” However the Catholics were the ones who assembled the bible and decided what would be in it. There were many other gospels and revelations floating around at the time – many historians think the RCC made a point of destroying as many as possible once THEY decided what the orthodoxy (truth) was going to be. If not for the Catholic Church, the bible might look very different. Some of the gospels floating around even suggested that Jesus had come to save mankind from God (given his poor behaviour in the Jewish scriptures). There were many competing sects, both in Judaism and in early Christianity. Many of the texts floating around at that time depicted early Christianity as a mystery religion pulled right out of expectations for a messiah that arose because of prophetic problems in Jeremiah and then Daniel (which many scholars consider to be forged) which pointed to a date of 30 AD. These texts depicted Jesus as Paul does – as a celestial god, not THE God, and not a real human being. The whole idea of Jesus as a walking, talking, living human being seems to have arisen with whatever material the author of Mark used – and from there, they just copied and embellished.

            As an aside – Paul’s Jesus does not appear to be human. He never refers to anything about Jesus’ birth, baptism, family, disciples, miracles, parables, or crucifixion details. Look at anyone writing about a famous person and they will use real examples. Paul never says, “Jesus solved this problem in this way,” or “When Jesus was confronted with this issue, he did this,” or anything of the kind. His letters to his congregations are extremely bizarre if there is a real Jesus, but make perfect sense if he thinks Jesus lives in the sky as a celestial being. Paul apparently has no concept of a physical Jesus. Some think Hebrews was written in the 90’s; while others think the 60’s, just after Paul. If so, there is much in Hebrews would also reinforce this idea of a celestial Jesus. Around 70AD when the gospel of Mark was written, Jesus became a flesh and blood human. However, if Jesus wa a real person, he was a complete nobody, because not a single historian of the time wrote anything about him.
            In any event, the RCC decided what the final bible would include, what the final edits would entail, and we have none of the original documents to see if they did it right, or made intentional modifications – for which there is a lot of evidence – see Bart Ehrman as one well-known expert on the subject.
            The problem evangelicals have when they hack away at Catholicism, is that they are hacking away at their own roots. Hack away!

            Sources for some of this: Willis Barnstone “The Other Bible,” Richard Carrier’s “Historicity of Jesus,” Bart Ehrman “Misquoting Jesus” and others.

          2. Isaiah's Cry

            I see our resident fool is back flaunting your lack of education. In case you didn’t know, you’ve already made it clear to everyone that you don’t understand the simplest things of theology and the Bible. No need to keep trying to prove it. And with all your ignorance, you still haven’t changed the truth that Catholicism is a man-made organization created centuries after Jesus walked the earth, as a political/religious organization to control the masses, especially the ignorant ones. Hence why their original Bibles were written in Latin, a language only known among well educated people, so that the peasants wouldn’t know all the lies they were spreading. Catholicism has not connection with Jesus, or the True Church, but is built upon lies and false, anti-biblical doctrines. They promote necromancy, idolatry, and deifying humans.

          3. Patrick Gannon

            I didn’t ask anyone to believe me; I provided sources, and I will not respond directly to you IC, unless you are commenting on specific issues. I notice that besides calling me names, you didn’t counter, object to, or challenge my assertions. So I win.

          4. Isaiah's Cry

            Oh….so you continue to flaunt your ignorance because you’re too ignorant to know better. I can understand that. You have nothing that could be considered intelligent enough to “challenge.” You have just ignorant blatherings of a fool. You’ve shown time after time on this article that you have no understanding of God’s Word. You’re just an argumentative jester with no credibility. Arguing such things with you is worse than arguing quantum physics with a 5 year old. You’ll just keep posting stupid things, and, in your psychosis, smiling at yourself because you think you’re smarter than you actually are.

          5. Isaiah's Cry

            Besides, Gannon, despite your “assertions” you still haven’t changed the truth that Catholicism is a man-made organization created centuries after Jesus walked the earth, as a political/religious organization to control the masses, especially the ignorant ones. Hence why their original Bibles were written in Latin, a language only known among well educated people, so that the peasants wouldn’t know all the lies they were spreading. Catholicism has not connection with Jesus, or the True Church, but is built upon lies and false, anti-biblical doctrines. They promote necromancy, idolatry, and deifying humans.

          6. Patrick Gannon

            I didn’t dispute any of that, did I? I just pointed out that evangelicals are a branch that came from Catholicism and any time they attack the RCC, they are hacking away at their own roots. So, as I said before, please hack away. I’m happy to point out flaws in Catholicism and do so on the CatholicSay forum almost every day, although I do it in a far more educated and professional way than you do.
            I may be wrong, but I think most Catholics are better educated than most evangelicals, and confronting intelligent people with logical, reasonable ideas based on critical thinking and objective evidence is likely to lead to better results than calling them idiots like you do. I think your approach just points out to them, that if there has to be a religion – it’s better to have some dignity than to be a fundagelical who must resort to bashing others. But have at it. It’s an open forum, and I really do enjoy watching you hack at your own roots.

          7. Patrick Gannon

            Hmm. I think I figured you out. You are actually a Catholic in disguise trying to make Catholics hate Evangelicals (and you’re doing a wonderful job of it) so they will remain with a more dignified faith system – even if both are unsupportable. I think you’re a phony. I can’t help but wonder if you are planted here by the RCC to convince people to stay with the Church, since you certainly don’t make the evangelical alternative in the least bit attractive. I think you’re a fraud. You’re really a Catholic aren’t you? What do they pay you to help convince Catholics to remain with their religion?

          8. Isaiah's Cry

            “I didn’t dispute any of that, did I?” Of course you didn’t. It’s the only smart thing you’ve done. But then you follow it up with more stupid.

            “I just pointed out that evangelicals are a branch that came from Catholicism…”No, we’re not. You keep trying to prove your ignorant, but we already know. We are a branch of Jesus, delivered from the apostate RCC.

            “although I do it in a far more educated and professional way than you do.” Carry on with your psychosis. The only one taking you seriously is you. But….you are a fool, so I can see why.

            “I may be wrong, but I think most Catholics are better educated than most evangelicals, and confronting intelligent people with logical, reasonable ideas….” Yes, you are wrong

            Speaking of having dignity, it’s apparent you have none. You certainly have no qualms in being an ignorant fool and boasting about it.

            “Hmm. I think I figured you out.” I’m up in the air about that comment. One side says that you’re promoting false advertising by claiming you think. But the other side says “Well, at least he’s smart enough to say he doesn’t know”….which you don’t

            As for the rest of that comment, I see you’ve gotten so desperate to use the ol’ “You’re actually helping out the ones you’re arguing against” tactic that 5 year old’s use. How many times have I heard pathetic people use that when they continuously get shot down

            But that brings me back to the question: are you atheist/agnostic because you’re an ignorant fool? Or are you an ignorant fool because you’re an atheist/agnostic?

          9. Patrick Gannon

            Thank you so much for confirming that I was correct! Goodbye IC. I’m here to debate self-identified Catholics, not frauds pretending to be evangelicals. Raise a legitimate issue, and I’ll debate you. Otherwise don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.

          10. Patrick Gannon

            Forgot to respond to your legitimate challenge. Please visit Wikipedia “religiosity and education,” or Pew Research on “educational distribution,” or any number of other articles attesting to similar results. Catholics, in general ARE better educated than evangelicals. Sorry – but as a Catholic pretending to be an evangelical, I assume you know that already.

          11. Patrick Gannon

            ““I just pointed out that evangelicals are a branch that came from Catholicism…”No, we’re not. You keep trying to prove your (sic) ignorant, but we already know. We are a branch of Jesus, delivered from the apostate RCC.”
            Note that one must be “part of” something before they can be “delivered from” it. As I pointed out, evangelism (Protestantism) branched from Catholicism, unless your specific denomination, sect or cult can trace its roots back to the time of Jesus without going through the RCC. There are perhaps a couple eastern Christian sects that can claim that, but you’ve already acknowledged that you were part of the RCC in order to have been delivered from it – and as I pointed out, the bible you say they get all wrong was put together by them!
            I already responded with some evidence indicating Catholics are generally better educated. I don’t see any other comments in your post that are applicable to the subject at hand. I think I’ve pretty successfully refuted you, and will leave it to those better educated Catholics who participate here to decide for themselves which of us is the 5 year old.
            Which brings us back to the question of whether you’re a wolf in sheep’s clothing – a Catholic stooge pretending to be an evangelical… You do play the role well.

          12. Isaiah's Cry

            “Thank you so much for confirming that I was correct! Goodbye IC.” Hahaha…so you have to resort to lying to boost your pathetic ego. And now you are going off to lick your wounds. Typical. Besides, how seriously can I take a fool who has already said “Enough of this tit for tat.. Done with you unless you raise issues having to do with the post” and yet keeps talking to me. Do you ever post anything remotely intelligent or honest?

            “I’m here to debate self-identified Catholics” No, you’re not, liar.

            “Raise a legitimate issue, and I’ll debate you.” I have, and you’ve failed each time.

          13. Isaiah's Cry

            “Note that one must be “part of” something before they can be “delivered from” it.” Wrong. You really should finish middle school at least, before you pretend something. Being captive of a group doesn’t make them part of it. Sorry.

            I see you, once again, have tried to counter facts, and have failed miserably.

            “As I pointed out, evangelism (Protestantism) branched from Catholicism” That’s like saying the Jewish race branched from the Egyptians because they were slaves of the Egyptians once. Rofl. You are a fool. I get a kick out you pretending to be smart.

            “I already responded with some evidence indicating Catholics are generally better educated.” How “educated” is one who says they’re a Christian, but practices un-christian doctrines? The only person more ignorant than that is an antheis/agnostic.

            So…I’m a Catholic stood pretending to be an evangelical? Hahahahaha. So you’re saying that because I argue against Catholics that I’m a Catholic? Ok, lil boy. That must mean you’re a Christian.

          14. Patrick Gannon

            OK, I’ll keep playing.
            How is it that evangelicals were “captives” of the RCC? In what sense? Was there any specific identifiable group or sect that you can show with historical documentation to have been captive to the RCC in the same way that Genesis tells us the Jews were captives of the Egyptians… (interestingly with an army of over 600,000 fighting men, the Israelites were held captive by the greatest superpower of the day, whom historians say had the largest army in history – about 100,000 fighting men. With a six to one advantage (and generally greater as the Egyptian army was not always stationed at home), the Israelites were held captive by the Egyptians? Hmm. I have trouble with that. In any event there isn’t a shard of evidence to support any mass Exodus from Egypt and archaeologists have given up the search as futile. Even leading Jewish scholars admit it didn’t happen in any way, shape or form as written). Please explain to me how evangelicals were held “captive” by the RCC as I have never heard this suggestion before – very interesting. Any sources would be greatly appreciated. How did these evangelicals know that they were captives? Who were their leaders or spokesmen for the many centuries before Martin Luther? Who spoke for their cause? What documentation exists to confirm this interesting claim?
            I don’t think your analogy works. I did not suggest that evangelicals are a different “race” than Catholics, as that would be nonsensical. I suggested that they were part of Catholicism and the burden of proof is on you to support your claim that in some way, they were not part of the Catholic religion, since you are the one making the claim that evangelicals were somehow “captives” of the RCC. Also the analogy fails because the Israelites had their own separate religion and were not part of the Egyptian religion, and it is religion that we’re talking about here, not race – right? The analogy fails. Try again.
            “Education: the process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, especially at a school or university.” My point stands on its own merits. The research indicates that in general, Catholics are better educated. You may be confusing “education” with “belief.” You may argue that their beliefs, and my lack thereof, are wrong – perhaps as a result of superior education misleading us by inducing us to use logic, reason, critical thinking, etc., but again, if you are making this claim, so you have to support it.
            I still think there’s a good chance that you really are playing a role here, in an attempt to get Catholics to dislike evangelicals. Your entire writing style would support this conjecture. You are rude and insulting, and that kind of behavior turns most decent people off. It doesn’t make them want to spend time with you, so the net is that you push them away from evangelicalism. It certainly repels me. I’m in sales and learned long ago that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar – though I too tend to like using a dash of vinegar in my debates at times. I doubt you are making many converts here. I may not be doing any better, but hopefully I give intelligent people some things to ponder, research further, and discuss. I insult the organization from time to time, but I don’t think one wins many converts by insulting individuals as you do so elegantly. There is a risk in insulting the organization, since believers identify with it as though it were themselves – but that’s part of the problem. They have to learn that religious organizations (whether Catholic or evangelical) exist for their own benefit. But have at it – I enjoy the show. I’m happy to help sharpen the axe you use to hack away at your own roots. Let me know how I can help.

          15. Isaiah's Cry

            “OK I’ll keep playing” Of course you will. You’re a liar and no matter how many times you say you’re done talking to me, you keep coming back.

            “How is it that evangelicals were “captives” of the RCC? In what sense?” And hence why I say you’re an ignorant fool.

            “Hmm. I have trouble with that” Of course you have trouble with facts and truth. Duh

            “I don’t think your analogy works.” Well, it does to intelligent people. But you’re just a little boy whining for attention.

            “Education: the process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, especially at a school or university.” My point stands on its own merits.” Yeah…zero merits. “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.” As I said…How “educated” is one who says they’re a Christian, but practices un-christian doctrines?

            “I still think there’s a good chance that you really are playing a role here,” Well, you never were very smart. I found that out from the beginning. So now you’re going to act like a 5 year old and make up stuff and try to soothe your bruised ego. In all my conversations with people like you, that’s what you do when you get shot down and you’re embarrassed and you want to save face.

            “I’m in sales and learned long ago that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar” No you don’t. Your conversation on here shows otherwise. I would suspect that you base your sales on deceit and lies. I certainly wouldn’t buy anything from you.

          16. Patrick Gannon

            IC, I adjusted my stance and said I would continue to debate, as long as we stick to a subject and not default to personal attacks. That’s your specialty, not mine, so aside from some gentle jibes, I’ll refrain from that tactic, or end up saying something I’ll regret, which is what I think you’re trying to get me to do. I’ll leave the mud slinging to you.
            So I’m ignorant. OK. I’m not too proud to admit that. Help me understand what you mean in saying evangelicals were captives of the RCC. Put it in terms a 5 year old can understand. Assume that there are Catholics interested in that claim. Tell them how their religion held yours captive for centuries. I’m sure we’re all interested.
            I would encourage anyone following this discussion to research the Exodus for themselves. There isn’t a shard of pottery, a wagon wheel, a spear tip, a sword, a shield or any of the trash that 2 – 3 million people would have left behind, particularly when we are told by the ancient texts, that they stayed in specific places for extended periods of time. As best I recall, every single apologetic essay on the Exodus that I have read, starts with the admission that there is no evidence. The logistics are mind-blowing. It’s a bit over 200 miles from Cairo to Jerusalem. If you lined them up heel to toe, you’d have over two solid lines of people between the two cities – it’s a massive number, and yet there’s NOTHING to confirm that there was ever anything but occasional bands of people migrating from here to there. All the available evidence scholars are aware of for the Conquest of Canaan indicate Persian invasions which are supported by archaeological evidence, but the Israelites did not wipe out various tribes of Canaanites to the last man, woman and child as directed by their rather vicious god. This is well known in scholarly circles, and is steadily making it’s way into the knowledge base of the general public despite the attempts of the Abrahamic religions to do what they can to slow the spread of this damning information. Without these events, what foundation is there for Yahweh? It took time, but Abrahamic believers eventually came to accept that the earth is not the center of the universe as the evidence clearly illustrates, and in time we will accept that there was no Exodus or Conquest, just as many are coming around to accepting that there was no 6 day creation (why does an all-powerful being need to “rest”?), and no global flood. The foundation just keeps crumbling away, and Catholics won’t like it – but this affects all the Abrahamic religions including theirs. I won’t even get into original sin and DNA at this time, but the impossibility of a two-person bottleneck is becoming indisputable as we learn more and more.
            I’m not going to debate further on “education.” I provided a dictionary definition you didn’t object to, and I presented evidence to support my assertion, which you have not countered; so again – I win. I think most of the Catholics here will agree.
            You haven’t convinced me that you aren’t playing a role, or really even tried to. I still think you could be a Catholic in disguise. (That assertion is probably more likely to annoy Catholics than anything else I’ve said – grin).
            I didn’t originate the old adage or proverb that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but you say it’s not true. So test it and let us all know the results – put out a bowl of vinegar and a bowl of honey and let us know which catches more flies. And don’t worry – the nice thing about my business is I don’t have to sell to clients if I don’t want to – and you are a deal I would run, not walk away, from. Note as well that you haven’t countered anything I’ve said with any sort of evidence, and you’ve offered no evidence of your own, for any of your claims.
            You do win most of the “hostility” points though! Congrats!

          17. Isaiah's Cry

            ML, If you find the truth an “attack,” you merely solidify your low opinion of the truth.

            “I adjusted my stance” I like how you justify lying as “adjusting my stance” rofl. So if someone says they’re going to do something for you and then don’t, they’re just “adjusting their stance” You certainly are quite the liar. Hence why I would never buy anything from you. You’re the perfect epitome of a used-car salesman.

            “So I’m ignorant. OK. I’m not too proud to admit that.” I never said you were too proud to admit it. If I remember correctly, a couple times I stated that you are rather boastful in being ignorant. That means that you don’t want to know. So when you say “Help me understand what you mean in saying evangelicals were captives of the RCC.” I know that you’re just lying. You don’t want to know. You want post stupid stuff.

            “I’m not going to debate further on “education.” I provided a dictionary definition you didn’t object to, and I presented evidence to support my assertion, which you have not countered” And I merely provided the truth, which you didn’t object to, and presented evidence to support the truth which you haven’t countered. All you have is assertions. And you’ll continue to lose.

            “You haven’t convinced me that you aren’t playing a role, or really even tried to.” I see you’re still hanging on to that sophomoric defense. It’s interesting watching how desperate people like you become when you’re owned. Yeah, I not intentions of playing your fool’s game. If you want to accuse me of something just because you don’t like being shot down, no worries to me. I know the truth.

            “I didn’t originate the old adage or proverb that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar,” I didn’t say you did

            “but you say it’s not true” No I didn’t. But, then again, you are a liar, so why would I expect truth from you. As your conversation makes clear, you apparently don’t even adhere to that adage.

            You find the truth hostile. I feel sorry for you.

          18. Patrick Gannon

            ““I didn’t originate the old adage or proverb that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar,” I didn’t say you did
            “but you say it’s not true” No I didn’t.”
            In response to my point that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, you clearly said, “No you don’t.” Here’s the full line:

            ““I’m in sales and learned long ago that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar” No you don’t.”

            Done here. I’d have to go back and read all your comments, but I don’t recall you providing evidence for anything you said – even quoting scripture. You’ve lost this debate. Good bye till we have something useful to debate… I suspect the Bishop will reassign you to work on another thread since you seem to have blown your cover here!

          19. Isaiah's Cry

            “I’m in sales and learned long ago that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar” No you don’t.” I guess I should have said “You didn’t” because you apparently didn’t learn that. Either that, or you just don’t give a darn about using honey. The more I listen to you, the more I doubt you’re in sales.

            “I’d have to go back and read all your comments, but I don’t recall you providing evidence for anything you said” Well, that’s because you lie and you don’t want to see it.

            “You’ve lost this debate” I hope your fragile, immature ego feels better now that you lied. What sucks is that you’re the only one believing your lies. Well, I’m sure you’ll go find all your pathetic friends and tell them all the stupid stuff you posted and lie about what I posted and get them give you a high five. But what kind of friendship is built on lies?

            “Good bye till we have something useful to debate” Lie. You’ve said that before.

            So far all you’ve proven is that you have nothing but lies and ignorance to post. Think you’ll ever be honest and intelligent?

          20. Patrick Gannon

            “you catch more flies with honey than vinegar” No you don’t.” I guess I should have said “You didn’t”
            Ah, this sounds like a demonstration of what is likely an educational difference between us. You called me a liar, but now admit that my statement was true, given your alternative choice of words. Next time, perhaps you could think about what you’re going to say, and make sure your words support that. Grammar counts. You don’t know anything about me, so you’re unqualified to comment on what I may or may not have learned, and therefore have made yet another assertion you can’t support.
            Once again you failed to explain what you mean about evangelicals having been held captive by the RCC. You made that up, didn’t you? If evangelicals avowed such a thing, I’m pretty sure I’d have heard it by now. A quick search fails to turn up anything to support this idea. You just keep on hacking away at those roots because evangelicals WERE a part of the RCC, as there was no other alternative, aside from a couple eastern Christian sects not affiliated with the RCC.

          21. Isaiah's Cry

            “Good bye till we have something useful to debate” Well….I see you “adjusted your stance” again….lol aka….lied.

          22. Isaiah's Cry

            Ohhh….so you’ve found something “useful to debate” like the fact that I never said the quote you posted was wrong. I just said you didn’t believe/practice it. Yeah. You got shot down again.

            “Next time, perhaps you could think about what you’re going to say,” yeah, because we all know you don’t think about what you say.

            So you’ve proven once again that you’re a liar and ignorant. So I’m not concerned with your assessment of…well…pretty much anything. I don’t take pathological liars like you seriously.

            “Once again you failed to explain what you mean about evangelicals having been held captive by the RCC” No I didn’t. Liar

            “You just keep on hacking away at those roots because evangelicals WERE a part of the RCC” yeah, no one’s willingly part of something they don’t believe in. Liar.

            “as there was no other alternative,” Actually there was. Ignorant fool.

  2. Merle Reply

    I was raised in a protestant church, the entire time I was taught that the Catholic church was a evil cult. I never could understand why these churches were so busy running a church into the ground. I married a Catholic who was faithful to his religion, I converted have never in 25 years heard anyone in my church run another church down. Even when I spoke to father about my children attending another church, he said they believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Sprit they are saved. Don’t worry they always find their way back.

    1. Chris Reply

      Merle, show me in the Bible where just believing gets you saved. You must believe that Jesus died, rose again and sets at the right hand of the father. Then Jesus said to also repent and flee from your sins. Your priest needs to tell you the whole story.

    2. Cindy Brown Reply

      I am so happy to read your message! I grew up and was educated in Catholic schools in a major city that pretty much only had Catholics when I was growing up. I didn’t meet a Protestant, or a Muslim until college. One thing that shocked me to my core was that Catholics do NOT run around putting other churches down, or other people, or judging all kinds of stuff, or gossiping!

      It wasn’t until I got to college that I met my first “born again.” who within minutes demeaned and belittled my faith, before she even got to know me! I had no idea until that moment that most if not many protestants have this HATRED for Catholicism.

      The cool thing is that Catholics live their life, their faith, their service is mostly quiet, not bragging about, or being loudmouthed, telling everybody they are going to hell. I’m certain it turns more faces toward Christ, when you love first, service next, and leaving the conviction up to the Holy Spirit and the judging up to God.

      I am so happy to have been brought up in such a sacred place where the spirit is clearly present. We don’t have to use words to tell people what faith we belong to.

      1. Bernard McClendon Reply

        Hey Cindy,

        First off, I love you. If I didn’t love you, I wouldn’t bother replying.

        Second, history tells us that Romans killed Jesus, and persecuted the church for centuries. Who do you think killed off the apostles?

        Third, Roman Catholicism was introduced hundreds of years after Christ. The Roman leadership based a universal religion off of Christianity, mixed with pagan festivals and traditions, and said that everyone under their authority was to be a Catholic from then on.

        Only people who were already Christians were opposed this idea because the pagans still had their rituals and didn’t know Jesus. These were not subject to scripture, nor did they have a genuine conversion through faith. Thus began the priest and laymen church relationship that is no where present in the book of Acts.

        In John 3:5 Jesus said “…Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God…” No amount of religious practice does that, but the blood of Jesus cleanses us, and His Spirit births us into his holiness nature (1 John 3:9).

        Besides that, people can join the organizations but no one can just join the true church (or body of Christ).

        Then Rome introduced a papacy at that time (which had no scriptural dexterity) to control this religion and its new members.

        Finally, there are a list of non-biblical traditions that are practiced by Catholicism, some of which directly oppose Bible scripture , which is the word of God for us (II Tim. 3:16-17). You can check the CARM.org resource for more info.

        You should know, that even the basis of salvation differs from Catholic to myself. Eph. 2:8-9 says by grace through faith in God, that many catholic believers are unaware of and remain untaught.

        Purgatory (which is not in the Bible at all) is taught and indoctrinated into the youth, to offer a false security of salvation through works.

        We share the truth in love. God’s church has Jesus, and He is the light of the world . We are to let our light shine so that men see our good works, and glorify the Father (Matt 5:16, 2 Cor 4:6). A big part of the is the gospel message (Mark 16:15-18).

        1. Lorry Davis Reply

          Dearest Bernard, you have been so mislead, so misinformed in everything you have sighted here.
          Truth now, how much formal education in Theology do you have?
          From every statement and accusation you have made here, tells me very little. What you do have is a handed down understanding of what others have convinced you of.
          My suggestion to you, is to listen to PHDs of Theology and Church Fathers and history.
          Stop listening to those who are so full of pride and ego and hate.
          Dr. Scott Hahn, Dr. Brant Pitre are two good places to start.
          Stop trying to bring Jesus down with His Church!

          1. Peter Haviernik

            Thank you, Lorry, your comment is accurate and concise.

          2. Isaiah's Cry

            Lorry, nothing as prideful and arrogant and Catholics. They refuse to listen to the truth

          3. Isaiah's Cry

            BTW…everything that Bernard posted was 100% truth. Don’t let your pride keep you blinded

          4. robert norman

            i can see clearly who are the prideful and arrogant one…..i once before stumble upon a book, an illustration guided book that meant for children that was written by non-catholic group/organisation, i didnt read the whole book, but one of page that shocked me, is that they wrote and stressing out that we should not following an old church because it is an old and evil church…they didnt mentioned what church it is, but they drew a catholic bishop…… i live in a diversity races and religion society, and the bragging one here in my country is muslim…they are the one that always oppressing us christian and non muslim….but what disappointed me is that, the non-catholic are pretty much has the same attitude toward catholic…espc. the evangelical………..

          5. robert norman

            ……..and u know what, we the catholic are the coolest one……we didnt overreact……

        2. Josephine Harkay Reply

          Purgatory is definitely alluded to in the Old Testament. It says after a battle that: “It is a good and wholesome thought to pray for the dead.” If souls went to heaven, they didn’t need prayers, if they were damned, they couldn’t use prayers.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            There was no purgatory in the OT. When you died, you went to Sheol. Everyone went to Sheol, good and bad alike. The Church translated the word “Sheol” to the pagan word “Hell” along with three other words (Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus). Sheol was not a place of punishment. The word Sheol meant either “dead,” “grave,” or “permanent unconsciousness” depending on the context in which it was used. The idea was that you languished there till the end times, upon which you were judged and either rewarded with a new paradise, or destroyed. The OT did not have the lovely notion of eternal punishment. Eternal punishment was added to keep the sheeple in line, but when you think it all the way through, you realize that it turns Jesus into the biggest monster of all time. We didn’t get eternal torment until after the “good news” of Jesus. After Jesus, we bypass going to Sheol and instead are judged on the spot and either rewarded by spending eternity in servitude to an all-powerful divine being who seems to need this worship, like a celestial North Korean dictator, or we are sent to eternal torment. Just destroying us for failing to live up to impossible standards wasn’t good enough for the early Church. They had to make sure they really had a big FEAR stick, so they invented a horrific punishing Hell, that no “good,” “fair,” “just,” or “merciful” god or human could ever condone. And then some early Church theologians decided that everyone needed to be “singed” a bit as punishment for their sins, because God just can’t forgive anyone without scorching them with a blowtorch first – so they invented purgatory, which like Hell is a place of punishment by fire.
            Stick your finger in a lighter and leave it there till it smokes, spits and blisters, then imagine that over your entire body, while the skin is replenished from below, and now imagine this happening for all eternity to someone who simply failed to believe, say or do the wrong things during the very short time they lived here, and ask how anyone could worship a being who would do that, and what it says about the people who would worship such a being. Fear such a being if it existed – of course, but to worship this evil and say that it’s good is to give up your humanity.
            All I can figure with regard to the reference to praying for those in Sheol, is that one could ask Yahweh to have mercy on them when He got around to judging them. As for Purgatory, while the concept was based on praying for the dead, the word as we know it, didn’t arise till the 11th century. Neither Jesus, Paul or any of the other NT writers mention it, of course. It’s not biblical. It’s an invention – a very useful invention because the RCC said you could pray for people in Purgatory and even better, you could give ‘indulgences’ (financial offerings) to the Church, which would reduce the sinner’s time in Purgatory. This had to be one of the greatest scams in the history of mankind, up to that point; and of course it was abused, and was one of the factors leading to the breakup of the RCC. To this very day, the Vatican is embroiled in financial scandal. God’s disordered, celibate, virgin men in robes still can’t be trusted with money!

        3. Michael Schmidt Reply

          Bernard; Cindy makes sense, you on the other hand ramble on incoherently.

        4. rafie Reply

          FIRST of all, you don’t love Catholics, that’s the fact. You hat Catholic Church and you destroy the faith of every baptized Catholics. SECOND, the Romans killed the Lord Jesus Christ REQUESTED by the Jews. The Romans sees nothing evil done by the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Jews “…SHOUTED LOUDER, CRUCIFY HIM!” – Matthew 27:22. If we continue, Pilate asks the Jews “…. “What evil has he done?” But they shouted louder, “Crucify him!”” – Matthew 27:23. Pilate (Roman Governor) find no case against him as we can read “On seeing him the chief priests and the guards cried out, “Crucify him! Crucify him!” Pilate replied, “Take him yourselves and have him crucified, for I find no case against him.”” – John 19:6. Clearly the Romans killed the Lord Jesus Christ BUT by request of the Jews. It was the Jews killed the Lord Jesus Christ because Pilate want the Lord Jesus Christ free Him but the Jews want the Lord to be CRUCIFIED.

          THIRD, the Catholic Church was started in Jerusalem but the JEWS rejected it so St. Paul brought the Catholic Church from Jerusalem to Rome requested by the Lord. “That night the Lord stood by Paul and said, “Courage! As you have borne witness to me here in Jerusalem, so must you do in Rome.”” – Acts 23:11.

          The festivals is part of the Jews tradition that apply by the Church and even modify it. And the word tradition means is what you accept as it is then you pass it into the next generation. Like Bible, Bible itself is tradition. All teachings of the Catholic Church was deposit by our Lord Jesus Christ because the Lord Jesus Christ is the founder of the Catholic Church even historians can prove it.

          While protestants are confused because you read the Bible literally.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Only a handful of Jews – the clergy – called for Jesus’ death. The Catholic Church for centuries blamed all Jews, living and dead, for killing Jesus. They dropped that finally, so hating the Jews is no longer Church policy, but back in the day, the Catholic policy regarding the responsibility of all Jews for the death of Jesus, provided implicit support for killing and mistreating Jews – and the RCC did a lot of that, and helped empower Hitler and others to do the same. Most people don’t seem to grasp the fact that Jesus’ ministry was directed against clergy. If he were to be here today, I suspect the same would still be true.
            As for Acts – you have to take that book with a grain of salt. The author (same as Luke most likely), was writing perhaps 40 years after Paul died. Acts does not agree with what Paul says about himself in several respects, and you’d think Paul would know when and where he went and what he said. Paul in any event has little credibility. Jesus failed to tell him about evolution, (or germs or any other small step in technology that might have saved millions of people), but he also led Paul to believe that the end times were near, within a generation, and in this, both Paul and Jesus were wrong.
            There was no Catholic Church per se at the time of Paul. There was no organization. Peter, was still associated with Jerusalem and he was supposed to be the first pope, not Paul, so your quote about Jesus telling Paul to take the message to Rome does not imply that the Church should be founded there. He already gave that honor to Peter, didn’t he? The tradition you mention says that Peter and Paul founded the Church in Rome, but there’s nothing in the bible or elsewhere to support this assertion that was put forth a century after the fact.
            You said that Jesus was the founder of the Church, but almost everyone agrees that Paul was the real founder. He put down the blueprint. He invented original sin, which was later fine-tuned by Augustine, and this is what the Church is based on. Evolution has destroyed this base, so things are getting dicey for the Church. Consider reading the NT in chronological order. It’s put together to tell a story – you get the stories of Jesus, then Acts talking about what happened next, then Paul spreading the word, and so on – but Paul was the first author, writing two decades after Jesus’ death. If you read the books in the chronological order in which they were written, you see a lot of evolution and theological development taking place. Paul was the first author, then Mark, Matthew, probably Luke, and then John, the gospel most different from the others, was written last. John’s Jesus is very different from the Jesus in the other books. John developed the theology out of the stories that came before, and he was writing perhaps 60 – 70 years after Jesus died in a time when the average lifespan was about 35 years. Later you had epistles claimed to have been written by people long dead, such as the Tims, which ‘edited’ some of the original letters of Paul, removing any chance for equality for women, for example.
            You mentioned that protestants are confused because they read the bible literally. First, not all protestants do that, and secondly, it takes the wind out of your bible citations, to suggest that they were just metaphorical and that the words likely didn’t happen as written. However your point is well taken – there isn’t single original manuscript for any part of the bible, so we really don’t know anything for sure.

        5. Birhane Reply

          peace be with you!
          i have read your message???

          i think all christians believe in ” trinity!” which is not written in the bible. If you believe this is an idea to describe three in one,you can believe what the catholics teach.

          This is the idea missing in all christian and they are critising the catholics add to thier teaching.

          Dear,if you find the word trinity in bible,let me know.

          1. Isaiah's Cry

            Birhane. Wrong. But good attempt to justify an apostate “church” that teaches false doctrines. Nowhere in the Bible does it infer that priests are to forgive sins. Nowhere in the Bible does it infer purgatory. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to pray to dead people (it does, however, condemn it). Nowhere in the Bible does t say to worship idols (but it does condemn it). Nowhere in the Bible does it say to deify humans (but it does condemn it). And a number of other teachings that can’t be found anywhere in the Bible (immaculate conception, for example). Thank God for the Reformation which delivered the Church from the grips of the man-made, false Catholic cult.

          2. Isaiah's Cry

            Not to mention that the office of Pope is anti-biblical and never mentioned in the Bible. It’s a man-made office. But, considering that the RCC wasn’t created until the 4th century, we understand.

    3. Michelle Tavakoli Reply

      That priest needs to scolded by his bishop. Im sure he was trying to console you, but very badly done. I cant believe he didnt even tell you to prsy rossries for them to come back, or that he would also do yhe same. Very shameful.

  3. Raymund Reply

    its not about of using the truth, its about telling the real truth. And the people will recognize who is laying.

    1. RAY Reply

      what kind of battle if i would ask? the catholic church is not competing or battling with with anyone for sumpremacy or recognition. those protestants are trying to make a story out of nothing, becauce the catholic church has ever existed since with its rich doctrines that the attackers do no have and no man can not change that because the church is build onthe the holy trinity . Continuing believing in your faith and give the catholics a break. we wont go to heave with our denominations but according to our deeds.

      1. Lilyian simon Reply

        Oh my…y are we fighting with esch other..catholic n protestant…just look at church history…protestant comes when martin luther, then a priest was dissatisfied and broke away from the church. u see, protestant comes way after the roman catholic church. Well nevertheless, we all believe in God and his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
        Our common goal is Jesus Christ! Why r we christians so divided and disunited when we all have one common goal.

        Do you think we are making God happy and pleasing to Him? Di you think that iur denomination guarantee us a life eternity in heaven.? Our faith does! So stop comparing and badmouthing…it is a sin.

        1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

          Actually, Lilyan, Catholicism came way after Christianity, and hijacked it. All the reformation was, was God separating and removing true Christians from the apostate “Church”

    2. Cindy Brown Reply

      Each and every denomination claims that theirs is the real truth. Quibbling about such things is against at least a dozen verses, including Tim 2:14 Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

      These little things that Protestants use to divide everybody into little fighting groups does less to draw others to Christ and more to draw people away from religion as a whole.

      We are all part of the Body of Christ. But many denominations cut off a foot, an arm.

      It is stupid to think that God is such a little nit picking, juvenile human being. He is more than we could ever imagine. Why make him so small, and ridiculous in man’s image?

      1. Scott Reply

        Bravo, Cindy! As a former Evangelical Protestant who joined the Church much the same way you did (my wife is a cradle Catholic), I’ve experienced a lot of anti-Catholic rhetoric in my past. Heck, there was a time when I believed it.

        But I have found my Catholic church to be more warm and genuine in their faith than many of the Protestant churches I belonged to. And I too have not heard my Catholic friends bashing and badmouthing other denominations, the way I heard many Protestants do to the catholics.

        Your comment about the splintering of the Protestant churches is dead on. When I was growing up I had a few records (dating myself there) by a Christian comedian named Mike Warnke. He said something on one of those albums that really stuck with me:

        “Isn’t it weird that the mighty Army of the children of God, armed with the Spirit, clothed in righteousness, shielded with faith, girded with truth, shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, spend the vast majority of their time either shining their armor or fighting one another.”

        If Satan can keep us busy fighting amongst ourselves, our effectiveness and ability to spread the Gospel is diminished in ways we cannot possibly imagine.

        1. easeltine Reply

          I cannot find the exact quote by Mike Warnke. It is on his original testimony tape when he is describing his childhood. His story was that he was part of a Roman Catholic home, and then went to a Fundamentalist Protestant home that was extreme anti-Roman Catholic. I cannot find the exact quote, he swears, and his new foster mom says something like, If you don’t accept Jesus Christ right now as your personal Lord and Savior a bold of lightening is going to come down and nothing of you will be left except a glob on the ground with you eyeballs sticking out. Something like that his new home believed that if you were Roman Catholic and you died there was a chute that would appear and you would be sent straight to hell, do not pass go.

          Mike Warnke was proven to be a liar and a fraud, but that tape was as funny as any Bill Cosby story jokes that I ever heard.

  4. Patrick Gannon Reply

    I think there are several reasons. The first, will not be well-received by fundagelicals, but in America, at least, I think Catholics are smarter, or better educated. There are a number of studies that show a correlation – if not causation – between intelligence, education and religious affiliation. Catholic schools are good; but of course they create a problem – once a kid learns how to think, then buying the Christian story becomes a real challenge. You have to indoctrinate them before they learn critical thinking or you’re unlikely to get them at all.

    It’s not nice to say, I suppose, but I think, based on my personal experience, that fundagelicals are less intelligent, or at least, less educated. As the rate of education and intelligence goes up, the more liberal, agnostic and atheistic the population becomes. By the time you get to the most intelligent people on the planet, you find that most of them are atheists or agnostics. So, fundagelicals are recruiting “dumb” people, and unfortunately there are a lot of them out there.

    Next you have the problem of waffling. First the sun goes around the earth, then it doesn’t. First you force conversion at the end of a sword, then you get civilized. First you get eat fish on Friday, then you don’t. First Mary Magdalene is a prostitute, then she’s not. First there’s a 6 day creation, then the RCC accepts evolution. First there’s Limbo, now there’s no answer to what happens to unbaptized souls.

    The fundagelicals stick to the story – 6 day creation. Without it, you lose original sin, ancestral sin, the fall from grace, whatever you want to call it. We know the story is bogus and that there was no talking snake, no tree of temptation, no global flood, etc. Catholics, by and large are educated, and know that the old stuff can’t be supported any longer. This is surely creating a massive problem for Vatican theologians. They’ve dug themselves into a big hole. Fundagelicals deny, deny, deny. The clergy understand that if evolution is true, then the entire basis for Christianity is lost. The sheeple don’t understand that, but the clergy does. It’s why they are so adamant about young earth creationism – their jobs depend on it. Accepting evolution means accepting that Paul was wrong – sin did not enter the world through one man, Adam because there was no Adam. DNA evidence is clear that we did not all evolve from two people 6000 years ago; nor a single set of parents 100,000 years ago. We are apparently the product of different groups of early humans that combined to become what we are now. As I understand it, geneticists can’t make it work – they can’t make us all derive from a single set of parents, based on our genetic diversity.

    There is no other source for Christianity besides the bible, and in the bible we know that both Jesus and Paul believed that the Genesis story was real. Today we know beyond any reasonable doubt that it is not how things happened. The RCC’s current argument as I understand it, is that sometime in the past 200,000 years, something like this happened – but there’s no other biblical or archaeological evidence for the fall from grace, than the book of Genesis. Anything else is made unsupported conjecture, that is steadily being eroded by actual evidence based on DNA. This all means that there was no fall from grace, no original sin and as a result, there is no reason to believe, say and do the right things in order to obtain salvation. Fundagelical clergy see the quandary the RCC has created for itself by embracing logic, reason, and the real evidence for evolution, and wishes to avoid that conundrum. They understand that accepting evolution removes the foundation for Christianity and so they are putting it off as long as they can.

    So what’s happening, I think, is that fundagelicals play on the fear of ignorant, unintelligent and certainly, uneducated people – catching children while they are still easily indoctrinated, and thus building their ranks. Catholics have already lost the battle, at least in educated countries – so they battle the fundagelicals in third world locations where people have not had the opportunity to become educated and learn critical thinking skills.

    1. RAY Reply

      what kind of battle if i would ask? the catholic church is not competing or battling with with anyone for sumpremacy or recognition. those protestants are trying to make a story out of nothing, becauce the catholic church has ever existed since with its rich doctrines that the attackers do no have and no man can not change that because the church is build onthe the holy trinity . Continuing believing in your faith and give the catholics a break. we wont go to heave with our denominations but according to our deeds.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        You don’t think there’s a battle for converts among the various religions? You have to breed or convert if you want to keep pews and coffers full.

    2. Brenda Reply

      Patrick, there’s a common phrase I love & find to be totally true: book smart & street stupid. The first thing you are missing in discussing religion is FAITH. Second, not everything is written down in the Bible. Third, the powers that be in the RCC get their direction from God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit. God in no way would allow his Holy Word to include anything but His true Word. And it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that God is so complex, and that complexity is also evident in His Book…things we as humans will never fully understand until He graces us with an invitation to His Heavenly Home. No amount (or lack) of evidence from HUMAN scientists or HUMAN experts will impress me when compared to God & His infinite wisdom, complexity, power or other-worldly intelligence. I suggest a prayer for humility & faith & most certainly forgiveness.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Faith is pretending to know things you don’t know. If you have actual knowledge based on objective evidence, there is no need for faith. You’re making a bunch of claims, but they are only unfounded beliefs, and maybe even “hope” that you are correct, given that deep down you know as well as I do that there isn’t a shred of actual, objective, empirical evidence for gods or afterlives. Hope is OK, but faith is lying to yourself, telling your brain something that it knows it doesn’t know to be true, likely creates unhealthy, internal cognitive conflict.
        You suggest I need a prayer for forgiveness, but I come back often to the parable of the talents. I’m inclined to think that if there really is a god, He/She/It will be something like the authority figure in that parable, and using the talents of intellect, logic, research, critical thinking, reasoning, etc. will be treated more favorably by the being that gave us those “talents,”than tucking those them up and burying them in a hole and believing what someone else told us to believe. I suspect that if there really is a god, using our gifts will be more important than burying our heads in the sand.

        1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

          You’re not very smart. lol You don’t even know what faith is.

    3. Helen Marie Dietrich Reply

      Look up Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosome Adam. Also, the creation story was written at a time when the people believed in many gods. It was written as such to show that there is one creator, and that humans are the pinnacle of creation. It was written to tell the people of the time that the one God created all things and all creatures. The bible is not a science text, but it reveals spiritual truths; that which we need for salvation.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        As you mention, the bible is not a science book. It’s completely wrong in its description of a 6 day creation. Humans evolved over millions of years from primates, and became ‘modern’ about 100,000 years ago. Neanderthal, modern man and the Denisovans arose around the same time and DNA indicates interbreeding. At what point did the Adam and Eve story occur? BioLogos a website founded by Francis Collins, one of the men who first decoded the human genome, indicates that current research suggests we came from a pool of about 1000 people. Which of them got Bible God’s panties in such a wad that we then needed “salvation?”
        With the destruction of a literal Genesis story, original sin is out the window. Paul thought the story was true – as did Jesus and everyone else at the time. If Jesus had really been God, he might have told Paul about evolution in one of his visions, but apparently failed to do so. Paul insists that sin entered the world through one man (Adam) and that man, Adam, never existed, but Paul, in his ignorance did not know that and was not “inspired” to come up with a more plausible need for salvation in light of the obvious failure of his proposal, once it turned out that the creation story was a fable with no basis.

        1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

          True, the Bible is correct in the fact that the earth was created in six days. Thanks for expressing your ignorance for us to see.

    4. Cindy Brown Reply

      Awesome comments! by the way, they coincide with many scholars. M. Scott Peck, Fowler, Lawrence Kohlberg, Jonathan Haidt, Maslow, Paul Ekman, Socrates, Aristotle, ,and countless others that are top in their field of study!

      I was wondering what you meant though by Jesus and Paul thinking the creation story was real. The Catholic faith has never taught that the world was created in 6 24 hour days, or that it had to happen in the exact order. Neither did the Jews believe such well, nonsense. The story has a much deeper and everlasting truth when taken as a metaphor that literally. (I imagine that I just misunderstood what you meant by “real”.

      The evangelicals didn’t come up with the 6/24 fantasy until a couple years after Darwin came out with his Origins of the Species. Out of fear they figured they’d lose members unless they did something drastic!

      Loved your comments though!

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Thanks for your comment, Cindy. It’s my experience – and I could be wrong – that a lot of Catholics do take the story literally. The RCC permits its members to believe in evolution or creationism and many, perhaps most on a global scale, believe in creationism, I think. I believed in a literal Adam and Eve as a young Catholic – at least till high school, when I learned about evolution, but that was quite a ways back and I hope most Catholics in the west at least, know that creationism has been fully debunked. I suspect that the Church still teaches it more literally in nations outside the west where people aren’t as well educated. Certainly in article after article on this forum, there are references to Adam and Eve as though these mythological people were real. We know that a DNA “bottleneck” down to two people did not occur, with a very high degree of confidence; even devout believer Francis Collins who decoded the human genome admits to this and publishes it on the BioLogos site he founded, which I invite all to visit. I think his faith is misplaced and he isn’t true to scientific principles in that regard, but the DNA evidence speaks for itself. There was no literal Adam and Eve, hence how did original sin come about?
        It’s an important point because without a literal garden story, there’s no support for original sin, and I’m not sure the Church can survive without it. It would mean transitioning to being ‘followers of Jesus’ and that ain’t what it’s all about in the RCC! You can’t support original sin in the evolutionary record, and there’s no other reference to it in the bible until Paul introduces the concept; although he doesn’t call it that. Paul believed in a literal Adam and Eve; I’m pretty confident of that – so too did Jesus, who if he was really god, should have known better. They certainly didn’t know about evolution and how we really came to be. I think the Jews realized the talking snake thing was nonsensical and that it was an allegorical story – certainly modern Jews do; but I haven’t read anything to indicate that they didn’t believe in a literal Adam and Eve back in the day. It doesn’t matter in their case, because they don’t have the concept of “original sin” as part of their faith. If you have a good article or source describing what the Jews thought of the creation myth back in those days, please share it. I haven’t looked into that; I just know they don’t buy into the invention of original sin – but it sure was a diabolically clever way to build a large, powerful, and controlling organization.
        Without a literal Adam and Eve (which the RCC still insists on – though they are willing to place this couple out 50,000 years or so), how can the concept of original sin be supported? Without original sin, there’s no need for salvation or baptism or believing, saying and doing the right things with respect to Jesus and more importantly, the RCC. There’s no need for guilt and fear and shame, there’s no need for subservience and excommunications, and heresy and orthodoxy and dogma and doctrine. There’s no need to fill the pews and coffers – and that’s the real problem, isn’t it? This is why the fundagelicals hold to their creationist beliefs. They know that once you give that up, there’s no support for original sin and the whole house of cards collapses. The only option at that point is to evolve into being organizations that ‘follow Jesus’ but without the fear brought about by the concepts of sin and salvation (and particularly SEXual sins, my goodness!). No, the virgin, celibate men in robes aren’t ready to give up all that juicy stuff, so they will obfuscate and convolute and procrastinate accepting the truth, just as they did with Galileo, but truth usually wins in the long run.

    5. John Buoye Reply

      Have you noticed how the public education system tries to get to the children very early in their lives with programs like Early Intervention. Why do you think they do that? Why is it that governments try to force their approved educational curricula (accreditation standards) upon their citizenry by passing mandatory education laws, and providing public funding for their public schools, but denying any form of public assistance to children whose parents would choose to have their children attend private (parochial) schools? They don’t give the latter any credit for the taxes they have been assessed to fund the “public schools”, even though they do not avail themselves of those “services”. So, parents who would choose to go to a private (parochial) school have to effectively pay twice for their children’s educations….what’s “fair” about that. Hmmh? Methinks there is no thought about “fairness”, but merely about “control”, specifically “mind control”, lol.

      I think you are accurate in assessing that the more highly-educated a person becomes, the more likely they will be to become “ungodly”. This phenomenon is not necessarily proof that those persons are “more intelligent”, but they have been more thoroughly “brainwashed”, through more (longer-term) exposure to “ungodly” programming within the educational system. Do they really teach “critical thinking skills” in public education? Hmmh? http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/think/critical.htm

      Do people really “get smarter” by extended time in “educational institutions” or do they merely become “more thoroughly enculturated or acculturated” thereby making them appear to be “more socially acceptable”? http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-enculturation-and-vs-acculturation/

      It is interesting that Christ wants his followers “…to be in the world, but not of the world”. What the heck does this all mean? I’ll let another “Christian” (not necessarily “Catholic”) explain it so I don’t have to write another thesis on the topic, lol See http://biblesforamerica.org/in-the-world-but-not-of-the-world/ and/or http://www.compellingtruth.org/in-world-not-of-world.html Please note, in particular, the following quote from the second of these links:
      “Satan keeps human beings under his control by using the world. He uses anything and everything as part of his system to attract and occupy people. He controls some by their careers. Others he occupies by music. With others, he uses education.”

      Yes, “education”, the whole “educational system”, if you will, is part of what I call “the Luciferian Construct” or “the World”. It encompasses the political system, the economic system, the banking system, the entertainment system, the religious system, the government system, the legal system, etc all working to keep GOD out of people’s lives. And, it only makes common sense, that the more of any of these things anyone is involved (part of) in, the less time he/she has for God.

      I consider myself very fortunate to have had very good parents who took the time to teach me a lot of foundational things in my very early life, baptizing me into the Catholic Faith, taking me to Mass every Sunday, teaching me to say my morning prayers upon rising, saying my evening prayers before retiring for the night, praying the Holy Rosary daily, saying grace before and after meals, being thankful to God for EVERYTHING. They provided me with a very good Catholic education from Kindergarten through 4 years of High School and then one year at a prominent Catholic University. I finished my formal education at secular Universities for my B.S. and Masters degrees. I’m still a practicing Catholic, I still believe in God, I’m very well educated, highly intelligent, articulate. Yeah, I’m smart and successful.

      The Catholic Church is the Deposit of the Christian Faith which includes both The Holy Bible and Tradition. Many of the tens of thousands of Protestant Churches/sects that have been formed since the days of the Protestant Reformation contain “part of the Truth, but for man-made reasons have chosen to ignore parts of the Truth that interfere with their World-view. It must be part of the Luciferian Plan of “divide and conquer”., lol. For those who believe in only the Bible, ask yourself how did Christianity spread so widely before the invention of the printing press that made the Bible available to the masses?

      Good luck, Patrick, you’re going to need it….or something else, lol.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Thanks for your note John. As frequently happens, we’ve wandered from the original post, but that’s OK. At some point, I’ll try and bring us back to it. You begin by asking about the public education system, and of course it recognizes what religions recognize – get them young. They are easier to indoctrinate. There is a huge difference though. Schools are generally providing objective information based on evidence. Religions are not. The greatest factor in determining a child’s faith is where it lives and it’s parent’s faith. If they didn’t start teaching religion till, say age 11 or 12 when a child is capable of more critical thinking, religions would fade away in no time.
        The issue of vouchers or home-schooled isn’t really germane to the discussion. It’s a political issue. I went to a private school and my parents had to pay for it, and that’s the way I think it should be. Who said life is fair? If some things are worth doing, then they are worth paying for and you have to make it happen without depriving others of what you owe society for giving you the place to do it in the first place. If you did not live in a society that gave you the option to send your kid to a private school, you wouldn’t be moaning about this. Regardless of who pays for it, my concern is that children are meeting national standards including learning subjects like evolution. I think the home-schooling networks and religiously oriented private schools in particular should be more closely regulated and monitored.
        You equate education with brainwashing? Seriously? OK, perhaps you should go live in the jungle somewhere and not learn anything. What exactly is “ungodly programming” in the education system? Nouns and adverbs or square roots and division? Or are you whining that they don’t teach creationism or intelligent design myths?
        Sorry, I”m not going to follow the links you provided. I don’t see what it has to do with the topic. I will give due consideration to your concern about the “Luciferian Construct” (sorry, I’m laughing here), as soon as you prove to me that this Lucifer fellow exists. I’m happy for you that you are pleased with your life. My upbringing was similar except I went to a non-denominational school, although I was Catholic, but I rode the bus with the other Catholic kids and was jealous of them because they got in a lot more trouble! Tell me this – did you ever read the bible cover to cover? If not, try it and look for Hell and the trinity, and purgatory, and abortion and masturbation and mortal and venial sins, and Limbo, and immaculate conceptions… look for that stuff while you read it. Highlight it with a marker when you find these topics.
        Christianity took off when Rome mandated it as the official religion for the empire. And the question of why Christianity took off before bibles were printed seems unrelated. The only ones who needed bibles were the clergy and they had them in Latin. When you compare the growth of Christianity, what are you comparing it to? The growth of Hinduism? Buddhism? Islam?
        Like many Christians, to my great sorrow, you too, the very well educated, highly intelligent, articulate, smart and successful Catholic feel compelled to warn me of impending doom. Good luck, because I’m going to need it. In other words, I’m going to Hell. OK. Which one? There are four of them, smarty pants. Which one am I going to: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus. These four original words in the bible were translated by the Church to the German word Hel which is of pagan origins and refers to an underworld. Look the words up and find out where they were used and by whom. While you’re at it, look up the word ‘aionion,’ which is the Greek word that was translated to “eternal,” by the Church, but it really means “of an age.” They made up a lot of stuff and misled you. It sucks. Everyone you trusted, lied to you. They lied to me too. If you really are smart, you’ll eventually figure it out; but if they have you thinking that continuing education is brainwashing, then you aren’t as smart as you think you are. Ignorance is not bliss – it’s just ignorance.
        You expressed a low opinion of education, yet a high opinion of yourself for having one, but in all your comments you never addressed the question posed by the article:
        What is your position on why fundagelicals (my word for it) are better at making converts than Catholics? Because they home school instead of sending them to private schools? What was the point of your whole essay?

    6. Etuate Reply

      Ibelieve if anyone want to know God should know and follow his or her Baptism teaching, the words that comes out from Jesus mouth is the true words of God…I am a fijian man and l born R. Catholic, yes Catholic is true Gods churh here on earth.

      1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

        Sorry to inform you that the RCC is an apostate church built upon lies and false doctrines. One of the best things to happen to Christianity is the Reformation, when God saved the Church from the grips of Catholicism.

    7. Lisa robertson Reply

      How utterly arrogant of you. This Pope is moving “with the world”. One can only hope the smart Catholics of which you speak can see it.

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        What do you mean in saying the Pope is moving “with the world?”

        1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

          It’s obviously way over your simple-minded head.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Yes, IC, it’s way over my simple-minded head. Would you be so kind in your excruciatingly superior brilliance, to have mercy on a poor ignorant and simple man, and explain what this means – if you can, that is.
            Actually, my comment was directed to Lisa and I would prefer to hear her response, since she made the point. Lisa, I can find no expression “with the world” that would be pertinent to the discussion.

        2. Isaiah's Cry Reply

          Trying to explain it to you is like trying to explain quantum physics to a 5 year old. Sorry. That’s your problem, not mine. You’re the one that enjoys being ignorant and then pretending you’re not.

  5. J. M. Reply

    Less well educated?? Not sure what you are talking about. Evangelicals are much more literate in the Bible and that is their ultimate authority rather than “traditions” established by men. I happen to have 2 graduate degrees. My brother is an evangelical/protestant minister and he has a doctorate.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      J.M., the more fundamentalist a sect of Christianity is, the fewer followers there are with college or other advanced degrees – according to Pew Research and others. I didn’t say one caused the other, but there is a correlation, and based on what I’ve read, people with advanced degrees have a higher likelihood of being atheist or agnostic.

      You are correct, that many evangelicals do read the bible cover to cover, but the number for Christians in general who read it is very low. Among my circle of friends, including those who are very religious, I can’t think of a single Christian friend who has read the entire bible. I have friends constantly throwing select bible passages in my face, but who have never actually read the entire book themselves. Debate sites are full of such people.

      I think we also have to be careful how we define ‘evangelical.’ You’ll notice I used the humorous term “fundagelicals” but it’s really fundamentalists that have the lowest education rates. I have Anglican friends who refer to themselves as evangelicals and they are not in the least bit fundamentalist. They do know the bible well, and we have intelligent discussions about various points. Of course, if the bible truly was “inspired” that there would be no need to argue over scriptures. You can read Jainism scripture and there is no more argument about the main doctrines today than there was 1000 years ago. This is not true with the bible of course. You can get just about anything you want out of it through interpretation.

      I encourage everyone to read the bible cover to cover. The OT in particular is a horrible story, but at times it’s very entertaining, with lots of sex, rape, incest, murder, revenge, talking animals… it goes on and on. I don’t know of a better way to create more atheists and agnostics, particularly if they do research along the way. For Christians, I encourage reading the NT in chronological order instead of the order in the NT. This will help you see how the theology developed over time and the changing role of Jesus.

    2. Rob Adams Reply

      You speak with great eloquence and no understanding. Sad

  6. Ernesto Reyes Reply

    My Jesus, I thank You for leaving me Your church, One Apostolic Catholic Church. I see so many sects which claim to have Your blessing and support. Yet, they contradict one another in many doctrines. You have granted me the favor of knowing Your one, true, apostolic church. she still stands today, after centuries of opposition and persecution. The many attempts of satan to destroy Her have failed, as You promised they would. Empires have risen and fallen, but Your church goes on telling the world Your holy teachings and commandments. You still speak through Her, offering truth and wisdom to all men. Let me always follow Her guidance in all matters of faith and morals.

  7. Harry Reply

    All religions are man made and all rely on indoctrinating the young and innocent mind.
    Religions by their very nature are devisive.
    Examine the question here…why is another religion more successful than the ‘true’ religion. The true religion, really? Who says so? Oh yes, I forgot, all those indoctrinated into Catholcism.
    There you are….you have won the argument.
    Sadly the truth is that all religion has caused and is still causing pain and grief to humanity. If only we could rid ourselves of the curse of religion, how peaceful it would be.

    1. Hart Ponder Reply

      Many have misused religion for their own ends. Using your logic, would we be better off under atheists like Stalin and the USSR?

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Stalin did not commit atrocities in the name of atheism.

        1. Hart Ponder Reply

          Your claim falls flat when examining history or Stalin’s Manifesto. The State was their God. I point here for my claim: The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            “The state was their God.” Well, that’s not Atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods.

            I agree with you that the State was their God. It was a religion for all intents and purposes with its own orthodoxy, doctrine and dogma. All that does is confirm that religion poisons everything, as Hitchens pointed out.

        2. Hart Ponder Reply

          I disagree. The ideology was the driving factor. Your claim falls flat when considering history. Instead of a Bible, it was A Manifesto. Read The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn

          1. Patrick Gannon

            That’s not what the history books say. They say he committed his atrocities in the name of Communism. Now I will grant you that Stalin targeted religious groups as a means to direct the people against them, in the same way Hitler did with the Jews, and I will admit that blaming Christianity when Christians commit atrocities, means we have to apply the same lack of values to both. What I and others would argue is that Communism was essentially a state religion. All religions want the people loyal to one and only one master, and in the case of Communism that is the state; in the case of Christianity, it’s Bible God, but both are essentially religious organizations.

          2. Isaiah's Cry

            True, Stalin targeted religious groups because he (and Communism as a rule) are atheists and have their heart set on silencing religion and anything resembling God or a god.

    2. Hart Ponder Reply

      It is not a numbers game. Our Lord explains:

      Matthew 7:13,14 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14″For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

      I pray the faithful become ready for what will befall Holy Mother Church (CCC 675-677).

    3. Cindy Brown Reply

      I hear this argument so many times. And each time I am sad. Sad because I know that the one giving the argument obviously does not have a satisfactory and personal relationship with the Holy Spirit, God or Jesus (if christian). It seems to always come from a place of pain.

      Wars and bigotry and hatred are not started because of religion, but in spite of it. People like people and control, and twisting religion to look like their own ego is the easiest way to gain power and control.

      A concerted effort to live out your faith would never result in a twisted faith, but it sure would withstand whatever the twisted people dish out in the name of their twisted faith.

      Jesus, and many other great spiritual leaders were killed by the “exclusive doctrine people.” They more rigid and sure you become, the less room you have left for your faith to transform you into well, what Jesus called the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

  8. Hart Reply

    It is not a numbers have. Our Lord tells us so:

    Matthew 7:13,14 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14″For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

    I pray the faithful become ready for what will befall Holy Mother Church (CCC 675-677).

  9. Louis C. Reply

    i see non catholic, coming into a catholic page and start criticise catholic for what it is… for something to be so irritating to some to the point they try their best to deny and run it down, it must be kind of special. if you really believe that you are right, you open your own page and write your own articles to suppprt it. we catholic believe we are true, so we stick with that. The same should be.with you. try to argue your case from your own stand like we do, without bulldozing throgh us and keep saying we are wrong without pointing where you are right. catholic will stick to its doctrins and believe. everything and every celebrations us catholics embrace are the celebration of Christ life, taken from the bible and arranged into liturgical calender… to remind us to try to be like christ. And another reason catholic is not converting many is because of all the ceremonies, protcols, celebrations, RCIA. It took you 1 year of RCIA to be able to be baptist a catholic.. You are made and taught everything about the church, the history, the teaching…everything before you decide either to be baptist or not as a catholic… as for the aiteist, i have no comment, the same about other denomination.. i speak about my catholic believe.. Christ had given us a choice.. to follow Him and be hated by the world or to follow wht the world want and ignore Him… that is why catholic did not sway from its doctrin to be able to comply with the current happenings and demands of the world.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      I am now a “recovering Catholic” but I recall appreciating when people would ask questions I was afraid to ask, or provide information I was unaware of. I would like to think that I am paying it forward, by helping those with the intellect and critical thinking skills to question their childhood indoctrination. I don’t recall anything limiting me to pro-Catholic posts when I joined here. I also remember when Christians claimed to be courageous and to face the lions in the den – today many can’t even stand up to a few reasonable questions.

      I think indoctrination is really the key. Mainstream religions aren’t doing as good a job at indoctrinating their children with fear. We’ve become more civilized, and telling impressionable children that they will burn for eternity in a (mythical) Hell if they fail to believe, say or do the right things is coming to be seen as psychological child abuse. Catholics in general, along with other progressive Protestants, are better educated than many fundies and understand that this is not good for children or our society. Fundamentalist Evangelicals however are doubling down on indoctrinating fear into their kids. One day, when we’re fully civilized, we will intervene and not permit the abuse to continue.

      So what’s happening, I think, is that Fundagelicals are growing in numbers because they are breeding their own followers who are well indoctrinated. The other denominations are bleeding because the young can see Christianity for what it has become – a religion of hostility to the other; and given that they aren’t as steeped in fear, it’s easier for them to do the right thing and think for themselves.

      1. johnnyvoxx Reply

        Mr. Gannon, The wild leaps of logic you make, and the profound ignorance of Catholic exegetics (as well as absurd statements like “There is no other source for Christianity besides the bible” when everyone who has looked into it marvels at the fact the Church existed for 400 years prior to the canonization of the New Testament under severe persecution), makes me think you are, in fact, a troll of some kind. If you are, Get behind me Satan. But if you really are as off-base and ignorant as you seem, and are not trolling, I urge you to take a second, deeper look at the Catholic Faith with someone who understands it. Because as it stands now, your fashionably insipid phrase that you are a “recovering Catholic” is not the true reality of your existence. Your true reality is that you were baptized into the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, and you have abandoned Her and God in a time of extreme duress. You have bought into a number of modernist lies and are now an infidel, cut off from sanctifying grace in the Eucharist (If you do not eat of my body and drink of my blood, you have no life in you. Jn. 6:53), and in a state of mortal sin, avoiding the primary remedy Christ left for one in your condition, the Sacrament of Confession. (“Whosever sins you forgive will be forgiven them, whosever sins you retain will be retained.” Jn. 20:19-23) It is my duty to inform you, that through your rejection of Christ and God, and your attempt to mislead others, knowingly or unknowingly, if you die in this condition, you will die objectively in a state of mortal sin and be separated from God and His angels and saints for all eternity. I highly recommend you become “teachable” on these matters of theology and seek answers to the apparent contradictions and inconsistencies you cite, because there are answers and they are sound. You bear the name of one of the holiest priests I ever knew, Father Patrick Gannon, who carried out his priestly ministries in Los Angeles and died two years ago. I am going to ask him in prayer to intercede for you, so that you can receive the grace you need to follow Christ during this, your exceedingly short sojourn here on planet Earth.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          You mention my exceedingly short sojourn here on earth in which I am supposed to believe the right things without a shred of objective evidence that these things are real, yet I am to be tormented for eternity – trillions of years of torture for a 70 or 80 year failure to believe the right thing (which could be Islam, Hinduism, Jainism or any number of other faiths given the total lack of evidence). Should such a vicious and evil God exist, at least I will suffer with moral superiority. However this concept of eternal torment is not biblical, so I’m not losing sleep over it.

          1. Cindy Brown

            Did you ever think that many people are actually gleeful at other folks going to hell!

          2. Patrick Gannon

            One would hope not, but indeed there are many who look forward to being vindicated by watching non-believers suffer. Yes, I think there are many such people. I used to be one of them.
            “The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever.” Jonathan Edwards. The righteous company in heaven shall rejoice in the execution of God’s punishment, and shall sing while the smoke riseth up forever.” Thomas Boston. “Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell…” I tell you, yea” Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.” Jonathan Edwards. There are certainly a large number of so-called Christians who have expressed interest in seeing me go there!

          3. Isaiah's Cry

            “but indeed there are many who look forward to being vindicated by watching non-believers suffer. Yes, I think there are many such people. I used to be one of them.” And then there are us real Christians who are sad that people like you will not make it to heaven. But we’ve realized that there’s nothing we can do. You make your choice. And even though you like to blame others, the truth remains that it was still your choice.

          4. Patrick Gannon

            IC, you just can’t let me go, can you? LOL. I’ll bet you’d be one of those Christians who would dance with glee if you learned that I was going to burn in your imaginary Hell.
            You call it a choice – just like extortion is a choice. If a Mafia goon walks into your place of business and demands that you pay him 15% of your revenue or he will shoot your knees out with a shotgun, are you “choosing” to have your knees shot out by refusing to be extorted? Is that truly “free will?” You have the choice of giving up the money (believing the right thing) or having your knees shot out (going to Hell). There’s no real difference except the scale of the anguish and the level of evil involved. Yahweh, if He existed would be no better than that Mafia goon, in extorting people to believe what you insist they must believe, not to mention the incredible wrongness of condemning anyone for any reason to eternal torment. Fortunately, a) the original Greek word (aionion) translated to “eternal” means “of an age” and ages always end, and b) there are four Hells in the bible – four words translated to the pagan word “Hell,” none of which means Hell as most of us think of it. We get our understanding from Dante’s “Inferno” and Milton’s “Paradise Lost,” and the Catholic Church that you love so much (grin), was responsible for propagating the lie – which should not surprise you. You’re scared of nothing. There is no Hell. Jesus spoke 11 times of Gahanna, which the Catholics translated to “Hell” but which was the Jerusalem town dump. It’s closed. Jesus was clearly speaking allegorically. I know you don’t believe me, so please look it up yourself and prove me wrong.
            I must say that I appreciate the opportunity to respond to your posts in order to provide information that the Church doesn’t want to be general knowledge.

          5. Isaiah's Cry


            “IC, you just can’t let me go, can you?” no more than you can let go. But between us two, you’re the only liar who’s said a number of times that you’re done talking to me.

            “I’ll bet you’d be one of those Christians who would dance with glee if you learned that I was going to burn in your imaginary Hell.” You don’t read too well. Well, you are an ignorant fool. Either that, or you did read what I said and just chose to lie about it.

            “You call it a choice – just like extortion is a choice” Hmmmm so our justice system is extortion, eh? Don’t murder….or you’ll go to prison for the rest of your life. Nice of you to support such extortion.

            “Is that truly “free will?” Duhhh….yes. What a fool. You think free will only applies to positive choices? Yes, you are definitely uneducated.

            “I must say that I appreciate the opportunity to respond to your posts in order to provide information that the Church doesn’t want to be general knowledge.” And we can count on people like you to make us look like geniuses. I guess lying and saying stupid things is considered “intelligent” in your family.

          6. Patrick Gannon

            ““You call it a choice – just like extortion is a choice” Hmmmm so our justice system is extortion, eh? Don’t murder….or you’ll go to prison for the rest of your life. Nice of you to support such extortion.”
            Interesting argument. Extortion is the the practice of obtaining something, through force or threats. In a way, I suppose you are correct. Society uses the threat of punishment to manage social behavior. The very worst we can do is lock someone up till they die, or execute them, at which point their punishment is finished. The threat that Yahweh uses is off the scale, with an eternal punishment and torture, not for something that hurts anyone else, but simply for not believing the right thing despite a complete absence of objective evidence to support it. Yahweh’s example is much closer (actually far worse) to the Mafia goon threatening to permanently destroy your knees for choosing not to pay him, than it is to society imposing a penalty for hurting another person. Your free will to pay the goon or get your knees destroyed is not very free, is it? It’s not much of a choice. I see no difference between Yahweh’s technique and the Mafia goon, except that with the Mafia goon, eventually you will die and no longer suffer from your destroyed knees, whereas with Yahweh, there is an eternity (actually the original word aionion means ‘of an age,’ which implies an end), of suffering – and yet they call this monstrous behavior good and suggest that sane people would choose the monster out of free will. I’d prefer to burn with moral superiority than to acquiesce to such a horrific being and be forced to spend eternity with cowards, sucking up to a monster. Fortunately we know the threat is not real, as there is no Hell – there are four of them in the bible, and none of them are Hell as we think of it today. Do you know that in some of the early books that didn’t make it into the NT, God was pictured as the bad guy that Jesus saved us from? This all took place in the firmament (outer space), rather than on earth, but such texts were floating around at the time and we still have a couple of them thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls and other discoveries. The NT we have today, brings this fight between good and evil down to earth and turns God into Satan, but is pretty much the same mythical story.

            So, what happened to you IC? They wouldn’t let you into the priesthood, so they signed you up as a troll to pretend to be a fundagelical, so Catholics would be repelled by your lack of social graces? You didn’t answer my question about whether you were an altar boy… Who pays you to convince Catholics that Fundagelicals are not the kind of open, friendly people whose congregations any sane person would want to join? Maybe I could pretend to be a Catholic too, in order to make agnostics and atheists look as bad as you make fundagelicals look… what does it pay?
            You should know that every time you insult me or call me a liar, I get a little grin, because use of such words means I’m winning the debate and you have nothing else to respond with…. When you do respond, as with this argument about extortion – I’ll respond in kind if I have the time and inclination; but you can call me a liar all day long, and that reflects on nobody but yourself. Given that Catholics are better educated, as I demonstrated earlier, I think most Catholics following our exchanges will agree with me that you are doing everything you can to keep Catholics from becoming fundagelicals – so tell your Catholic handlers I think you’re doing a good job. If you are representative of fundagelicals, I don’t think you’re going to attract many converts. The “nones” are making steady progress, even if you’re falling behind.

          7. Isaiah's Cry

            So you support YOUR extortion, but other’s not so much? Yeah. You’re not very intelligent.

            “You should know that every time you insult me or call me a liar, I get a little grin…” No doubt there. You’ve made it clear you enjoy being a liar and an ignorant fool.

            “means I’m winning the debate…” with lies and ignorance? Good luck with that. No wonder intelligent people don’t take you seriously.

            “but you can call me a liar all day long, and that reflects on nobody but yourself.” Yeah, it does reflect on you, considering you’ve proven yourself to be a chronic liar. But it does reflect on me as well, as being one to point out the obvious, of which you try to hide from.

            “Given that Catholics are better educated, as I demonstrated earlier…” I wouldn’t call a group of people who follow lies and twisted words as “educated” but you apparently have a much lower standard of being educated.

            “so tell your Catholic handlers I think you’re doing a good job.” And, again, you follow up with a lie. No surprise there

            “If you are representative of fundagelicals, I don’t think you’re going to attract many converts.” Yeah, I suppose I could win more converts by lying to them, but I’ll leave that to you. Wide is the gate and many are who find it, that leads to destruction. Narrow is the gate and few who are who find it, that leads to salvation. I look for people who want to know the truth. That excludes you. The truth is hard to swallow and harder to follow. You’re a prime example.

      2. Cindy Brown Reply

        Sometimes I feel pretty lucky. My family wasn’t religious at all, but I gravitated toward something. I got to believe whatever made sense to me. I think early on I got the spirit part, the unconditional love that Christ has for me, is was drew me, original sin – nope no way, God putting any of his creation into a fiery hell for not being able to memorize John 3:16. Threw that out.

        Parents, pastors, and other people in leadership roles are making a bunch of dumbies who can only think with their heads, with what is good for ME ME ME. by not letting their people question and come up with the answers themselves with their inner guide, spirit, whatever one wants to call it. Indoctrination makes ugly suptid exclusive doctrine people who enjoy arguing more than they enjoy discussing how a passage inspired them differently today than the last time they read it.

        Without our gut, our moral compass, our belief in ourselves we have nothing. When fundies are faced with a difficult complex choice, what do they have to help them figure it out?

        I think that the church was all that I had. The nuns were my lessons on unconditional love, where for others they were meanies with rulers.

        School was my refuge. Praying 7 times a day! YEAH!

        I raised four children with the goal that they would understand all religions and the truth that they shared. No indoctrination. I just wanted really good hearted compassionate, non-judgmental people who would not use words like the N-word a favorite of my family. And that is what I got! Adults that care about the poor, stick up for the marginalized, stand up against that which hurts people. There is nothing more that can make anybody happier than to know that is who you are more than anything.

        Do you know Scott Peck, the road less traveled? I imagine you do.

        He talks about the four stages of spiritual development, mostly from the perspective of personality problems resulting from bad religion.

        Stage 1 is the lawless stage, the viper, the evil pastor in it for the money, the narcissist in it for the power and control. ( or it is also the young child before he understands right from wrong.)

        Stage 2 is where the indoctrination people get stuck, and ruined for life. I call it the legalism stage. It is when faith is indoctrinated into you harshly with rules, and no room for growth and questioning. Fundies stay here, and are miserable to themselves, and everybody around them. They are missing a fundamental piece of themselves.

        And they cannot ever understand stage 3 or 4, and get violent or angry if anybody tries to explain it to them

        Stage 3 is the seeker, the questioner, (maybe you??? the agnostic, the post-Catholic LOL, the atheist even) NO legalism or literalism for these folks. Finding the .questions is the fun part, not the answers.

        Stage 4 is the mystic, the one who has gotten past all the crap, and now exists in this connection to others. They are the kingdom of heaven on earth. the Rumi Sufi Islams, the Kabballah Jewish sect, St. Francis, St. John of the Cross St. Teresa of Avila. Buddha, Krishna, They have union – with something? God, the universe, love other folks? does it matter?Do the words matter, or their interpretation? Not when you are here at this stage, even if only for moments here and there under a pine tree, or laying on a fresh snowfall.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Great post, Cindy. I like that four stage thing you described. I guess I went from stage 3 to stage 4 and back again, after trying the New Age thing for a while. The ONEness I appreciate now, is that which Carl Sagan and Neil DeGrasse Tyson and others talk about – the interconnectedness of everything at all points is simply the reality of our existence. Whether consciousness is one of those things is the real question, and so far the evidence does not seem to support consciousness surviving beyond the death of the brain.

      3. Isaiah's Cry Reply

        You said you were a Catholic once, and in another you were never told to read the Bible. ‘Nuf said.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          I responded to your misinterpretation, but will correct you again here. As a Catholic growing up, I do not recall being encouraged or motivated to read the bible. If you read more of my comments on this forum, you will know that I have read the bible (later in life) cover to cover, several times. It was reading the bible that convinced me that agnosticism was the most logical approach to gods and afterlives.

          1. Isaiah's Cry

            I have read your comments. Whether you’ve read the Bible or not is something only you know. But it’s obvious that you have no understanding of it.

  10. Claire Stevenson Reply

    40k protestant denominations in the US. Original sin. (discuss among yourselves)

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Too funny, Claire! Too funny. Like throwing a bone into a pen full of rabid dogs.

      The real twist is that the RCC accepted evolution and that eliminates original sin. How they get out of the hole they’ve dug for themselves will be interesting to observe.

      1. Augustine Reply

        When did the church accept evolution? (In its entirety)?

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Fair response to my flippant post. The RCC has not fully accepted evolution, but they didn’t accept Galileo’s discoveries either. What we have is a small handful of Popes, starting in the 50’s who hoped and prayed that evolution would not be proven true, who then acknowledged that it was likely true, to basically accepting it with he exception that there has to be a literal Adam and Eve. Officially, the Church allows you to believe in the creation myth or evolution and they take no theological hard line on it. But they’ve opened the door, and they won’t be able to close it.
          We’ve come a long ways since the 50s and now with the human genome being decoded and fossils yielding DNA evidence, it’s clear that there was no human bottleneck of 2 people – the DNA just won’t support that. Eventually the Church will have to admit this or try to come up with some other explanation for how original sin occurred, but there’s nowhere to go. You have the Genesis creation myth and you have Paul saying sin came into the world through the first man, (Adam) whom he believed to be a real person. Paul was wrong, and Jesus didn’t tell him about evolution in any of his visions. There’s no other support for original sin in the bible, and none in the evolutionary record, so where did it come from? The great news is that it was all made up. Paul was wrong. We do not need to believe, say and do the right things in order to avoid eternal torment as a result of something the kids ate from the tree of temptation – it didn’t happen. Unbaptized infants need not go to Hell or Limbo. It’s wonderful news for everyone – except the clergy of course.
          By the way, in addition to evolution, Jesus also failed to tell anyone about something as simple as “germs,” and if he really wanted to make things better, he’d have realized that he took the wrong side in arguing that his disciples need not wash their hands before eating. He was a peasant, not an all-knowing god; or he was viciously cruel in denying this information until we figured it out ourselves many centuries later If Jesus had known about sanitation and germs he could have cut short centuries of continuing misery; but either he didn’t know, or he was not “good” enough to tell anyone. Obviously, he didn’t know. The gods of the bible, Yahweh and Jesus don’t know any more about science and the natural world, than the knowledge of their time – most of which was wrong.

      2. John Buoye Reply

        Patrick, the last time I checked the Theory of Evolution was still just that….”a theory”. It’s thesis still remains “unproven”. Check back with me when you have unearthed the proof.


        Many of your statements are not well-founded and based upon a lot of lies that have persisted for many years to sow doubt, confusion and obfuscation among the masses. Such a self-proclaimed “critical thinker” as yourself should really know better, lol.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          John, I’m so disappointed. You told me in another post how educated and intelligent you are and yet you don’t know what a scientific theory is. Are you sure you’re Catholic? I would expect that argument from a home-schooled fundagelical. (Sorry for the sarcasm, but seriously, dude.)
          “A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.” Germ theory is just a theory – go stir your dinner in the cat’s litter box before eating it. Gravity is just a theory – jump off your roof. Information theory is just a theory – get off your computer. Heliocentrism is just a theory – the Catholics were right, the entire universe revolves around the earth. Einstein’s theories of general and special relativity are just theories – throw away your GPS and buy a paper map. In science a theory is basically something accepted as fact that scientists try to prove wrong. They are still trying to disprove Einstein’s theory and a recently launched satellite will participate in an attempt to disprove it. Of course evolution is under constant attack but nobody has been able to disprove it. There are different theories of how it happens, but that it happens is not questioned by the scientific community or anyone else who understands at least the basics. I don’t think there’s a single peer-reviewed paper submitted to a notable scientific reporting publication that attempts to refute evolution.
          How old is the article you linked to? What qualifies “Hugh” as an expert on evolution? Is he a fundie Catholic? One thing he mentions, irreducible complexity has been very well explained, thus eliminating intelligent design from consideration- the article is completely wrong on that point. I’m not going to critique it here, but in general the article represents the Church’s view as I understand it. They essentially say they accept an old earth but you are allowed to believe in the creation fairy tale if you want to – in other words an embrace of ignorance. Where they disagree with the science is where it matters – whether there were two original people who did something to get Bible God’s panties in a wad and curse us with original sin. And the DNA evidence does not support them…
          You have not refuted a single one of my statements which you say are not well-founded and based upon a lot of lies. Examples please. Put up or shut up, as they say…

  11. Brian Sellers Reply

    Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians could be addressed to any and all Christian denominations of today.  Anyone who dares to lead others to Christ, must first surrender himself to the Holy Spirit and endeavor to follow Christ just as St. Paul did; teaching the Gospel always, and when  necessary using words. It is not for me to presume who has been saved and who has not; or to even ask, for only God knows what dwells within each man’s heart. Who am I to judge myself knowing Christ will judge me at the appointed time? When the Lord comes, “he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.” Accepting Christ is not the end of the journey, it is just beginning. We are called to be eternally faithful servants, in hope and love.

    Paul wrote this letter because he had heard disturbing reports about what was happening in the Church at Corinth and because the church had written a letter to him. These are the specific, chance circumstances that drove him to write this letter. He did not intend this letter alone or together with his other letters and the writings of others to be the comprehensive and sole source of correct doctrine. However, he addresses several specific issues:

    1) the certainty of knowledge of others’ or one’s own salvation
    2) divisions and factions within the Church at Corinth
    3) the questions of the Corinthians regarding marriage, virginity, and food offered to idols
    4) liturgical problems and disgraces regarding women’s headcoverings, the Eucharist, and various spiritual gifts like tongues
    5) the theology of the Resurrection

    Consider this statement from Paul’s opening comments to the Corinthians and how it applies to the Church today. Are we divided? Are there rivalries? Are we united?

     I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you.

    I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to* Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.”
    Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    1. Bill Balisteri Reply

      The point of 1 Corinthians could be laid to all denominations including catholic as “I have heard it said among you that I follow Francis and Catholics, I follow Baptist, I follow Anglican, etc. when we are all one body one baptism, one Christ. As Paul would say who is Francis, who is the head off the Baptist council but men like you and I. The problem comes whenever the messenger is elevated. Paul, Peter and angels refused to be worshiped or venerated because only God is higher. We are lowly sinful humans and from best to worst looks like the high and low places on mars to the God of the universe because we ask start so far away. Only Christ can bridge that gap for the the mass murderer rapist to the pope-spiritually the gap is the same because without Christ we are only fallen too far to get up

    2. Cindy Brown Reply

      Beautifully put. I am going to study those verses today!

    3. Rob Adams Reply

      Evolution is the biggest farce ever devised by man

  12. Juan N. Trinidad Reply

    The Roman Catholic Church been the oldest should have gave the example on how to obey Jesus teaching and never should have made their own rules on how to obtain salvation, all she had to do just continue with Jesus teaching and then there would not have been any objections from anybody else, if the church should have followed Jesus and only Jesus and never mixed Christianity with Paganism there would not have been any objections, also, should have recognized that no one but, Jesus is the savior, not his mother and certainly no any so called saints, Jesus is the one and only person that saved the world from our sins, his blood washed our sins, it was not Mary’s blood, or any Saints that the church wants you to pray to.

  13. ken Reply

    It is not about denomination, religion, or institution. Look to the Bible for answers. Look at Romans, Galatians, and John. These are just a few books that point to the truth of the gospel. Jesus Christ is the builder of the true church. The true church is made up of people who have put their faith and trust In Christ alone to save them from their sins and have eternal life. The scriptures tell us that we are all sinners and are in need of a savior. Christ came to redeem us. Salvation is a gift through Jesus Christ. We are saved apart from the law and good works. The law points to how we fail. Grace and Mercy is what we need. When we repent and put our faith in Christ we are born again. This is an event that happens once in our life. This is when we are justified and receive the Holy Spirit. We then begin a life of sanctification with the power of the Holy Spirit which dwells in us. There is repentance for salvation and repentance for daily living as a true believer as we are being sanctified until we go to be with the Lord in heaven. Our denomination does not save us, only Jesus Christ. Gods word settles the argument.

    1. John Radice Reply

      Sounds plausible, Ken, but that’s a particular interpretation of selective Biblical texts which didn’t start emerging until 1500 years after Christ founded His Church. You’ve basically bought into an ideology derived from texts – and, of course, that basis is a recipe for fierce argument over who is interpreting those texts correctly, and the inevitable development of thousands of warring subsects.

      In fact, Christ left His Apostles, who in turn ordained their successors, the bishops: the Church which taught and lived and worshipped as He initiated. That is the primary reality that witnesses to the Kingdom and Gospel and passes this Way down the generations until He shall return. Of great importance are the apostolic records of Christ and His Apostles, which the Church wrote, chose and edited under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and added to the comparable records of Israel.

      Accurately described like this, it should be plain to you why Christians of this original, apostolic and Catholic faith such as myself will hold to the Church’s traditional interpretation of those Scriptures rather than the innumerable personal opinions about them which compete amongst Protestants who have rejected that unbroken Apostolic testimony.

  14. jerry Reply

    I think a lot of it has to do with the world around us. i always hear how the church is losing members, how there is a shortage of priest. but ask yourself why. it could be that the church does not reach out to the gay community, nor the divorced. To get an annulment is a crazy and very envasive process not to mention the time it takes. I am also sure the scandals have not helped at all.

    Even when none of that is an issue it takes sometimes years to be confirmed. The church is suppose to be a place of forgiveness yet we hold so much against so many. Jesus commanded us to love one another he did not use the words except “group of people”. We need to do more to reach out to these people. I am not saying agree with their lifestyle, nor am I saying that we tell them its ok. But at the vary least we should let them know that the church is a place for all, that even in your sin Jesus loves you.

    We all sin and need the grace of God.

  15. WhyCatholic Reply

    Lots of interesting replies to this post. The fact is “truth” is not a popularity contest. The truth is the same today as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow. Jesus revealed the truth of God and the Church Jesus founded proclaims the truth of the Gospel. Therefore, it cannot change with the times and look to be popular. Like Christ its purpose is to teach truth.

    Jesus did not seek to soften his message nor water it down in order to gain followers; rather he spoke and those how listened followed and those who did not were left alone. So too God leaves us alone he does not force himself on us.

    The universal church (Catholic) has stood from the time of Christ and will continue till the end whether it has one member or a thousand does not matter.

  16. peter1589 Reply

    How Old is Your Church?

    If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

    If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

    If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

    If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

    If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

    If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

    If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

    If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

    If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

    If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

    If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

    If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

    If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as ‘Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

    If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

    Martin Luther was so successful because he started the whole mess in Germany, where they toilet train their kids waaaaay too early and cause the psychological manifestation of orderliness, stubbornness, and a compulsion for control. Obstinate characteristics were behind WWI and WWII with the Kaiser Wilhelm and Hitler both. Clearly, pride came before the fall, and what a fall it was. The Blessed Mother came to the shepherd children in Fatima and said that WWI was going to end soon, but a worse war would break out in the Pontificate of Pius XI if mankind did not better themselves.

    Clearly they didn’t because as the Blessed Mother prophesied, there would be a strange light in the sky just before WWII would break out and, as God demonstrated, the Aurora Borealis extended further toward the equator than ever before, and it was in the Pontificate of Pius XI. Here is a quote of what was going on at the time from fatima.org:

    “Furthermore, the “night illumined by an unknown light,” which Our Lady said would signal the coming of the “great war”, occurred during the night of January 25-26, 1938. On that night a bright red light, likened to the blaze of a gigantic fire, filled the evening sky, and was seen across Europe and even in parts of North America and North Africa. It was determined to be a most extraordinary aurora borealis. Sister Lucy expressed reservations on this, but wrote in her third memoir on August 31, 1941 that no matter what cause the light could be attributed to, “God made use of this to make me understand that His justice was about to strike the guilty nations…”

    During the same night that the great sign appeared in the sky, in Moscow’s Lubianka prison a man by the name of Kristian Rakovsky was being interrogated by Josef Stalin’s chief interrogator. During the interrogation Rakovsky revealed Germany’s plan to dominate Europe. He proposed that the Soviet Union join Germany in an invasion of Poland, which would lead to Europe’s retaliation against Germany and not the Soviet Union. According to Rakovsky’s plan, France and England would wear each other out, after which the Soviet Union would turn on Germany and collect the spoils of the war. This fateful interview began at the same time the unknown light in the sky was beginning to fade. It resulted in the Soviet Union’s instigation of and participation in the war, and Rakovsky’s plan was carried out to the great benefit of the Soviet Union. Again, this decisive step toward World War II occurred during the reign of Pope Pius XI.”

    The entire success of Luther was based on the pride filled hearts of those who wanted to be Pope and Magisterium themselves, and redefine God into their own self image. Sola scriptura and sola fede met both those objectives and masses of people started falling into Hell from being estranged from the Sacraments. At the same time, Spain was sending conquistadors to the New World because God wished to stop the human sacrifices being carried out by the Aztecs against weaker neighboring tribes, and a slave among Cortez’s initial faction had smallpox which infected both the Aztecs and the native tribes and spread like wildfire throughout the New World, killing millions.

    The Catholic Church was able then to convert millions more who survived, and when Blessed Juan Diego was on his way to the bishop to have him pray for his sick uncle, the Blessed Virgin appeared to him and asked him to tell the bishop to build a Basilica on that spot in Her honor. Juan Diego said he needed a sign, so She told him to pick some roses (blooming out of season in December) and put them in his tilma (a cactus fibre cloak) and take them to the bishop. He did, and after waiting and persisting against resistance, finally got a hearing with the bishop, told him what the Blessed Virgin said and the Bishop asked for a sign. Juan Diego opened his tilma, the roses fell to the floor and there was an indelible image of the Blessed Virgin imprinted upon his tilma. In the irises of Her eyes, one can see the bishop and his assistants gaping jaws and wide eyes as they see the miracle.

    That tilma still exists, has not disintegrated after 600 years and is hanging in the basilica built in Her honor. Truly, as Christopher Columbus named his ships the Santa Maria, the Pinta and the Nina, St. Mary indeed *DID* paint a little girl!

  17. peter1589 Reply

    One more thing, St. Padre Pio was a Capuchin monk who received the stigmata from Christ Jesus while praying before a crucifix. He was given amazing spiritual and supernatural gifts, among them the power to read hearts. A former friend of mine who was a practicing homosexual went to visit the Padre just before he died in 1968. The Padre read his heart, told him his sins and said he could give up his lifestyle and become a Prince of the Church (a cardinal) or keep it up and end up in Hell. To prove it to him, he told him to go back to NYC and find his son, which this former friend thought was impossible due to his lifestyle.

    It turns out he was drunk at a party and fell into bed to sleep. A woman jumped in, conceived and now this son of his is a priest. The friend has not forsaken nor sacrificed his lifestyle.

    This Padre Pio also said that if the demons in the world had corporeal bodies THEY WOULD BLOT OUT THE SUN. That is a LOT of demons. And this was before Roe v. Wade.

    When abortion became the law of the land, most women fell into the trap of not only abortions, but birth control, causing millions more abortions. Gloria Polo, a Venezuelan dentist, who had had several abortions, was hit by lightning and killed, along with a cousin. Her saintly mother and a particularly pious farmer who heard about it prayed for her soul and St. Michael was sent to grab her as she was plummeting into Hell. He grabbed her ankles and let her hang over the precipice to experience the worms of conscience crawling all over her soul and torturing her. He then took her to Jesus who showed her how every time there is an abortion, something like a seal on the earth is opened and a million demons are released.

    Given the widespread contagion of immodesty, murder of the unborn, homosexuality, adultery, shacking up, friends with benefits, STD’s galore, serial divorce and remarriage, bastard children lucky enough to escape the carnage of abortion but void of the influence of true male examples in their lives, and effeminization of them the logical and tragic result, leaving us with military men who are committing suicide by the dozens daily as they return home from the demon infested regions of the Middle East and images showing such “men” with their hands on their heads surrendering to Iranian navy assaults, is it any surprise our society is coming apart at the seams, a self-assured Muslim is leading us in the White House, decimating our society and economy and military leadership?

    Calculate it! 1 million demons per each abortion, 57 million abortions, which equals 57 TRILLION demons loose, IN ADDITION TO THOSE WHO PADRE PIO SAID WERE ENOUGH TO BLOT OUT THE SUN IN 1968!

    Laugh if you want to, but I’m praying the Rosary, the Litany of the Guardian Angel and the Chaplet of St. Michael and praying to God that my wife will want to go to daily Mass, since she, a cradle Catholic, can’t be bothered to do so.

    Is it any wonder Christ said in Luke 18:8, “But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?” Has there EVER been a time like now when the faith has been so emaciated, so dissipated, so confused, so diluted into so many confused, convoluted sects?? Or a time when the priesthood has been so withered by the assaults of the evil one via the TV, the radio, the cassette players, the 8-tracks, the reel-to-reels, the CD’s, the DVD’s, the Boom Boxes, the Walkmen, the Ipads, the IPhones, the Apple watches? Entertainment at all costs, and no attention to prayers? Who fasts and prays, as Christ said was necessary to expel the demons in the Bible? What remaining priest actually instructs the faithful to fast and pray, and what woman will fast except to lose a few pounds so she can be more attractive and draw more men into sin by looking at them?


    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      “He then took her to Jesus who showed her how every time there is an abortion, something like a seal on the earth is opened and a million demons are released”|
      Scriptural references please….? I have my own ideas as to where the “demons” are coming from…
      The RCC says there are three options for aborted souls: 1) Hell, 2) Limbo, 3) you are allowed to “hope” that God isn’t a monster and will save these unbaptized souls that have “original sin” staining them. Ah, but if He could do that, then he could save all of us if He wanted to, couldn’t He? If He could save all of us and chooses not to, then He’s a monster. If He can’t then He’s not all-powerful. If He permits innocent souls to go to Hell then He’s not all-good. The picture of God that the RCC presents us with, is most distressing and unattractive. .

  18. Mitchell Owen Osmer Reply

    1Ki 15:13 And also Maachah his mother, even her he removed from being queen, because she had made an IDOL in a grove; and Asa destroyed her idol, and burnt it by the brook Kidron.
    2Ch 15:16 And also concerning Maachah the mother of Asa the king, he removed her from being queen, because she had made an idol in a grove: and Asa cut down her idol, and stamped it, and burnt it at the brook Kidron.
    2Ch 33:7 And he set a carved image, the idol which he had made, in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen before all the tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever:
    2Ch 33:15 And he took away the strange gods, and the idol out of the house of the LORD, and all the altars that he had built in the mount of the house of the LORD, and in Jerusalem, and cast them out of the city.
    Isa 48:5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
    Isa 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
    Jer 22:28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
    Zec 11:17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
    Ac 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
    1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
    1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
    1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
    1Co 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
    Exodus 20:3-11—Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
    7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
    8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    READ !!!! This IS what the Bible says !!! Yet, I see so many bowing to idols, statues of Mary, Peter, and others. No where in the Bible did Jesus ever bow to His mother Mary, nor pray to her. NEVER did HE pray to Peter or any other man. Jesus NEVER prayed with a rosary. the ONLY one He prayed to was His father GOD !!! 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    So, since this is what God says. why do people pray to a priest, to confess their sins? A MAN CAN NOT forgive your sins unless you sinned against that person.

    1. Brenda Reply

      Mitchell, where on earth did you get that Catholics bow down to worship Mary? Catholics offer respect to her because she is the Mother of God. And Catholics don’t pray to a priest! In the Bible, Jesus speaks to his apostles about hearing confessions & gives them the power to give absolution. The purpose of confession is for the confessing person…for humility, to vocally acknowledge to themselves their sins because it has a bigger impact within themselves & helps them resist a future temptation to repeat those sins. It also helps the confessor unburden themselves. Then the priest can also offer scripture or advice.

      When on the cross Jesus introduced Mary to John as John’s mother, and John as Mary’s son, He is also telling us that we are Mary’s children also & that she can help us in this miserable world we created & be a comfort to us. He was also telling us that we should love & respect her as He did. Mary helps carry our prayers to her Son & adds her prayers to ours so that we will be given as much consideration as is possible. Try really investigating the Catholic faith. It’s a beautiful thing to behold & who knows, you just might become a convert.

  19. Monty Reply

    All of that is very interesting. My whole take on it is: I’d rather die a believer and be wrong, than to die an unbeliever and be wrong.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      But how could you ever know that you believed in the right God? What if it turns out to be Allah, or Shiva, or any of the thousands of other gods that have put in an appearance throughout human history? What evidence do you have that you are believing in the right god?
      I tend to think that if there is a god, He would reward those who used their brains, intellect, reasoning, critical thinking and other “talents” that they were provided with to question the reality of god. Those who cowered in fear and accepted what they were told to believe – those may be the ones who end up being punished for squandering the intelligence they were born with.
      Keep in mind that Christians are atheists. Do you believe Muhammad was the last prophet of God? No? Do you believe that he flew to heaven on a winged horse? You don’t? Do you believe that when you die as a martyr you get 72 virgins? What? You don’t believe these things? Why not? Lack of evidence, perhaps? Guess what, that makes you an atheist.

      1. Augustine Reply

        We dont believe or disbelieve based on evidence. Its about we see as truth.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          But how can you know which is the one “true” faith without evidence? The Hindu or Muslim believes every bit as strongly as you do in his or her idea of God, as do the Methodist or the Baptist. “God” is apparently causing all of them to believe that they have the correct belief and everyone else is wrong. Why would He do that? How can you know who He is misleading? And why would He do that?

          1. Isaiah's Cry

            “And why would He do that?” He didn’t. In reading your multitude of comments, it’s apparent that you like to come across as educated, when you’re nothing but a fool playing pretend

          2. Patrick Gannon

            Yes, personal attacks are always good when you can’t answer a question.

          3. Isaiah's Cry

            Yes, personal attacks are always good when you can’t answer a question” Yes, and the truth I pointed out is even better when I actually did answer your question. Ignoring both is the sign of a weak mind.

  20. James M Reply

    Because they are more evangelical than we are. They preach Christ – as the Apostles did. We preach the Church and the Pope, being against abortion – in short, anything other than Christ. When Catholics evangelise at all. How can Christians who have rather poor knowledge of Holy Scripture evangelise ? Without the living witness of Scripture, Evangelisation is talk about some long-dead Jewish guy. Who cares about that ?

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      That is a very astute answer James M. I think you made a very important point. They do tend to know the bible – or at least certain parts of it – much better than Catholics. When I was a kid, I don’t recall ever being encouraged to read the bible. For a long time it was forbidden for anyone but clergy to read the bible, under threat of being burned at the stake. Even though that policy has changed, thanks to the Protestant Reformation, there is perhaps still a lingering sense that lay Catholics should not study the bible. Ignorance is blessed.
      There is a very good reason for this – reading the bible creates a lot of atheists and agnostics, which is why so many atheists and agnostics know the bible better than believers. Jehovah Witnesses read the entire bible, but they do so with careful oversight by elders to make sure they interpret it in the correct church-sanctioned manner! I enjoy debating them, because they do know their bibles, but it’s interesting to present them with interpretations, not to mention other scripture that contradicts their positions. Most of the time, however, I think their interpretations of scripture are more accurate than most Christian interpretations. Their problem, like that of other evangelicals, is that the scriptures themselves are the claim, not the evidence, but they seem not to understand this.
      The lack of focus on Christ – which to me refers to the good teachings of Jesus and nothing more – is also a problem for fundamentalist evangelicals who focus on some of the same sex hangups as the Catholics, but add in a dose of devout belief in a literal Genesis. Catholics, at least in the west, I think tend to be better educated, and many now understand that evolution, archaeology, cosmology, geology, etc. have unravelled Genesis and some are even learning that The Exodus never took place as described in the book of myths. Things get disconcerting when you start thinking and using intellect and reason. It’s hard to evangelize when you’re trying to figure out how original sin took place when there was no literal Adam and Eve. So, Catholics get their new members by breeding and then indoctrinating them. They can’t really debate their evangelistic brethren because they don’t know the bible, and if they did, they’d realize how little support there is for most Church doctrine. It’s a bit of a Catch-22 for the RCC, I think – it’s probably easiest and most efficient for them to just breed new members – hence the antagonism to contraception. .

      1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

        ” When I was a kid, I don’t recall ever being encouraged to read the bible” But yet you act like you understand it. Interesting.

        1. Patrick Gannon Reply

          Just because I was not encouraged to read it as a Catholic kid, I did in fact end up reading it cover to cover – several times. I wouldn’t say I “understand it” because nobody living now can know exactly what was first intended by the writers, the origins of the stories, and of course there are no original manuscripts for any part of the bible.
          Now, question for you, Isaiah’s Cry – have you ever read the entire bible cover to cover?

          1. Isaiah's Cry

            “have you ever read the entire bible cover to cover?” Yep…and, unlike you, I understand it. Reading and understanding are two different things. I could read a quantum physics book from cover to cover and still not understand anything about it. Just as you do with the Bible. But yet, in your lack of understanding, you’re still foolish enough to pretend you’re intelligent.

          2. Patrick Gannon

            But you are very hostile and unkind; and thus a good Christian.

          3. Isaiah's Cry

            I guess “read” would be an understatement. I’ve studied the Bible with help from the Author. You should try it sometime. Naw…you prefer to be ignorant.

          4. Patrick Gannon

            Yes, I can see that you got much from the Sermon on the Mount. Enough of this tit for tat.. Done with you unless you raise issues having to do with the post, rather than personal attacks which prove nothing except that being a Christian does not make you a better person.

          5. Isaiah's Cry

            Coming from a man who has no understanding of the Bible, I’ll take the ignorant comment for what it’s worth–nothing. You do know you’re making a fool of yourself, right?

          6. Patrick Gannon

            I doubt there are many serious Catholic theologians arrogant enough to say they completely understand the bible. It’s good to know that there is at least one expert in the entire world on the topic of the bible. Congratulations; I bow to your superior intellect, however, the topic is why Evangelicals do a better job of converting new members than Catholics. Do you have anything to add to the discussion besides providing an excellent example of why some Catholics such as yourself, drive people away from the Church with arrogance, personal attacks, insults, intolerance, etc.? The thing is, Evangelicals do the same thing. In any event, the Nones are winning.

          7. Isaiah's Cry

            But you did do the smart thing, and make the decision to not argue against the Truth. As Jesus said about people like you “…the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.”

          8. Patrick Gannon

            If you are able to, post something relevant to the topic at hand and I’ll be happy to debate. If calling me names and slinging scripture makes you feel better about yourself, then you’re welcome; I’m happy I could make you feel superior and I hope it made your day. I’m still waiting for the “strike the scoffer” passage – don’t forget that one!

          9. Isaiah's Cry

            “I doubt there are many serious Catholic theologians arrogant enough to say they completely understand the bible.” True. They’re more interested in what the Pope says or the “Church” says than what the Bible says. Here’s a typical debate with a Catholic:

            Christian: “The Bible says….”
            Catholic: “The Pope says….” or “The Church’s teaching says….”

            And again, you reiterate your low view of truth. Just because all you have are lies and ignorance and can’t argue against the truth, doesn’t mean I’m mean or arrogant. Duh. That’s like me claiming that a quantum physics scientist is “arrogant” for showing me how little I actually know about the subject. The difference between you and my analogy is that I would never claim to understand quantum physics, much less debate a quantum physics scientist on the subject, but you continue to narcissistic enough to claim to understand the Bible and argue with those who actually do, which you do not.

          10. Patrick Gannon

            What “truth” am I failing to argue against? You’ve just suggested that you know the bible better than leading theologians – perhaps you could send me a link to some of your theological essays so that I might compare you with better known theologians. You’ve accused me of lies without providing any examples. I have studied the bible a lot more than quantum mechanics, but I would never be so bold or arrogant as to say I understand either. I’m pleased to know that you are the leading expert with regard to the bible on our simple planet, and if I have questions about scripture, I’ll be sure to look you up.
            Once again – could you possibly add anything to the discussion besides personal insults? Do you have the ability to participate in an intellectual discussion or are you limited to insults and personal attacks? Why will Protestants, other people of faith, or non-believers viewing this discussion be incented to become Catholics based on our discussion? What about your comments to me will make them want to become Catholics? I think you’re an example of what drives people away. Why am I wrong?

          11. Isaiah's Cry

            ” If calling me names and slinging scripture makes you feel better about yourself, then you’re welcome” No, pointing out the truth about you and quoting Scripture in addition to it doesn’t make me feel better. It doesn’t make me feel worse. The facts I point out are facts with no emotional baggage attached.

          12. Isaiah's Cry

            “What „truth“ am I failing to argue against?” The truth.

            “You’ve just suggested that you know the bible better than leading theologians – perhaps you could send me a link to some of your theological essays so that I might compare you with better known theologians.”Why do you need to compare it? You don’t even understand it. One does not need to right an “essay” in order to understand the Bible. duh

            “I have studied the bible a lot more than quantum mechanics, but I would never be so bold or arrogant as to say I understand either.” Doubt it. And yes, you’re not so bold enough to SAY you understand it. You just make claim by arguing with those who do know more than you and trying to prove them wrong.

            “– could you possibly add anything to the discussion besides personal insults?” Well, that’s s misleading question. Like me asking you if you’ve stopped beating your wife. Can’t answer that because I haven’t done it. If you find the truth insulting, well….that’s your problem, not mine. Do you think you’ll ever add anything intelligent to this conversation? You may think so, but you are a fool. Nothing more than a boy dressing up in a man’s suit pretending to be something you’re not.

            “Why will Protestants, other people of faith, or non-believers viewing this discussion be incented to become Catholics based on our discussion?” They certainly won’t want to be agnostic, that’s for sure. People like you make me glad I made the right decision. BTW….why would I want them to be Catholics?

            “I think you’re an example of what drives people away. Why am I wrong?” Jesus said ” “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’” I bet you have no idea what He meant,

          13. Patrick Gannon

            What truth? Who gets to decide what is true? You? Do you get a merit badge for that?
            I was seeking some confirmation that your understanding of the bible was superior to all others. I guess I’m just supposed to take your word for that, since you have nothing to offer in that regard.
            One need only read the bible once, and I’ve read it more than once, to show many a Christian that they have no clue about their own religion. I enter into discussions on other forums with people who really do have a nuanced and educated knowledge of the bible, and we have some interesting discussions. I’ve seen nothing in your posts to indicate that you are at that level. If I post something from the bible that you object to, perhaps instead of insulting me, you could point out why my interpretation is mistaken and we can have a grown up discussion.
            Thanks for acknowledging that you are unable to add anything to the discussion except insults. Got it.
            Now I’m confused. I was assuming you were Catholic, but perhaps not. Please tell us what denomination or religion you are from so we can all run from it as quickly as possible.
            Jesus’ message about bringing a sword, presents an interesting topic for discussion, and if it comes up in a post on this forum, perhaps I will join in. I see that you got the message about the sword, but nothing about loving enemies, turning cheeks, treating others as you would be treated, none of that silly Jesus stuff has anything to do with Christianity any longer, does it? This particular topic, on this particular forum, is about why Catholics are having such a hard time converting people. You apparently have no opinion on the subject, so there seems to be no reason for you to continue here.

          14. Isaiah's Cry

            You know….for one who said “Enough of this tit for tat.. Done with you unless you raise issues having to do with the post” you certainly are doing a lot of tit for tat. Honesty apparently is not your strong suit.

            Speaking of which, you asked me for some evidence as to you being a liar. Well, you just gave a fine one. You said “Thanks for acknowledging that you are unable to add anything to the discussion except insults.” What sucks for you is that I did no such thing. I did, however, admit to speaking the truth and you finding it insulting. So, in a twisted, illogical, lack of integrity sort of way, I can see how you would twist that around to mean what you want it to. If it strokes your fragile ego, that’s fine. You need it apparently. It doesn’t matter to me that you find the truth insulting. You didn’t like the truth before I commented on this subject. And your dislike of the truth hasn’t changed me one bit.

            “Please tell us what denomination or religion you are from so we can all run from it as quickly as possible.” You already have. I’m a disciple of Jesus. And, despite what you may say, you’ve already done that long before I came around. Oh well. Your loss.

            “Jesus’ message about bringing a sword, presents an interesting topic for discussion, and if it comes up in a post on this forum, perhaps I will join in.” Why not now? After all, we haven’t been talking about anything related to this article yet and you seem fine with it.

            “but nothing about loving enemies, turning cheeks, treating others as you would be treated, none of that silly Jesus stuff has anything to do with Christianity any longer” Again, you show your ignorance of the Bible and of Christ Himself. Yeah, nothing we’ve discussed has anything to do with loving my enemies or turning a cheek. But I do love you enough to tell you the truth. The problem is that you’re so prideful, you take insult at it. There is a difference between those who are truly searching (not you) and those who merely want to debate in order to prop up a low self-esteem. And thank God someone was loving enough to tell me the truth a long time ago so I didn’t end up in the boat you’re in.

          15. Patrick Gannon

            You’re right; I shouldn’t have wasted as much time on you as I did, but it was entertaining. I was having too much fun. I’m still not sure what “truth” you’re speaking of, other than your hypothesis that I am a fool; but, OK, if that’s your truth, you can have it. I was a fool for wasting my time on you.
            So you’re a “disciple of Jesus”? I guess that means you’re non-denominational? Are you a literalist? You referred to “the author” of the bible, so can I assume that you take the book literally?
            Come on Catholics, help me out with this guy. He’s the one and only world wide expert on the bible. What do you think your theologians would say to him? I’m actually happy to learn that he isn’t a Catholic, I am used to being treated as he did by Fundagelicals, but it’s very unusual for a Catholic to act in such an uncharitable way. Sure, Catholics frequently remind me that I’m going to Hell, but piling on insult after insult – you guys are better than that. If it’s people like Isaiah’s Cry that the fundagelicals are winning over as converts well then, hey – no big loss, right?
            “so I didn’t end up in the boat you’re in.” Are you referring to Hell? Are you finally telling me I’m going to Hell? Which one?

          16. Isaiah's Cry

            “I shouldn’t have wasted as much time on you as I did, but it was entertaining.” Only you would find it entertaining to be a fool.

            “I’m still not sure what “truth” you’re speaking of” That explains it all. You have no desire for the truth. It’s foreign to you.

            “You referred to “the author” of the bible, so can I assume that you take the book literally?” Yes and no.

            “Come on Catholics, help me out with this guy.” So yeah, you’ve been shot down and now you’re looking for help from people that you slammed on this website? Yeah, you’ve not very intelligent. Lol

            “so I didn’t end up in the boat you’re in.” Are you referring to Hell?” Nope. I’m talking about being an uneducated fool.

    2. Brenda Reply

      James M, I don’t know where you go to Mass, but my church hears about Christ every mass! Every scripture reading is about Christ & every homily is about Christ. When’s the last time you went?

  21. Karen Reply

    I was raised in the Lutheran church which is protestant. Never, in all my years as a student or a parishioner was I ever taught or told that the Catholic religion was an evil cult. We were always taught to love everyone. We were taught to respect others religions too. We were encouraged to live our lives according to the 10 commandments.

    1. jerry Reply

      Not every church does it> I was a member of a Baptist church when i was a teen. I left that church because they did hate on other faiths regularly. I could not take it and got out of there. Ones faith in God should be respected even if your wrong you should have respect. I just this Easter entered into communion with the Catholic church and i have never been happier.

    2. Susan Reply

      Same with me. I wasn’t taught to be against Catholic. Makes me wonder who is brainwashing the Catholics to think this. Anything I have learned of being a Catholic is from friends and family and the the mass coverup of pedophile priests. That alone is a serious crime and reason to keep children safe.

  22. Adam Reply

    It’s amazing to me that people offer opinions without first having ascertained the truth of any religion. We have One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism. If you believe that Jesus Christ Is the Son of the Living God and you adhere to HIS tenants then don’t worry! However if you worship angels, and saints, and Mary you might have a problem…. No man can come unto the Father but by Yeshua haMashiach!!!!!!

  23. WIlliam Sebunje Reply

    I dont see any problem here, first the Bible being referred too, originality it was written by long time fathers (Catholics), secondly the whole thing is all about Christianity. If is to join moslem, then, there we can ague. Icall every thing baseless, its like leaving your fathers house and construct yours, even if it had no cement, still it remains your fathers house, even if you abuse it to whatever extent.

    It’s always just important to learn to apologize in life, just say sorry for failing to move to my promises, people who dont know to apologies are always hard to deal and associate with!
    I get worried, of those is to join, he might disorganize them !.

    Be Blessed.

  24. Beverly Reply

    I think part of the reason that evangelicals make more converts than Catholics is that in some ways, it’s a lot tougher to be Catholic. We are exhorted at every Mass to be more, do more, follow Christ with our whole being. Many of the evangelicals I know don’t have to work that hard, and their spirituality isn’t nearly as deep as a result. Many of the sermons they hear are more self-congratulatory, and less geared toward a deep, enduring relationship with Christ that survives the hard times as well as the good.

  25. Nj Reply

    The original Founder of the Catholic Church is “Jesus Christ Him Self”.

  26. peter1589 Reply

    Pretty simple proposition. Since satan is called the prince of this world by Christ Jesus, and He also states in Luke, ” But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?”, then, the MASSIVELY divided sola scripturists, as each of the over 57,000 + sects CLEARLY demonstrate, each of whose members has the philosophical latitude to declare his own interpretation of Holy Writ singularly and uniquely correct by the dictates of his own ego (which neither he nor Martin Luther can or could master in humility), it is logically deducted that satan himself is in charge. The Holy Ghost does not divide, but unites. Thus, for 2,000 years the Catholic Church has survived intact, while the world threw herself against It, fruitlessly.

    But this plain fact will have NO impact upon the egos of the PROTESTants whose protests indeed, for 2,000 years, have failed to destroy the Catholic Church.

    Worse, the current troubles of the Church were prophesied by St. Nilus, viz:

    The Prophecy of St. Nilus

    After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, people’s minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonor and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will become unrecognizable.

    People’s appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to their shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents and elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, Bishops and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right-hand way from the left.

    At that time, the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society.


    At that future time, due to the power of such great crimes and licentiousness, people will be deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit, which they received in Holy Baptism and equally of remorse.

    The Churches of God will be deprived of God-fearing and pious pastors, and woe to the Christians remaining in the world at that time; they will completely lose their faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all. Then they will separate themselves out of the world in holy refuges in search of lightening their spiritual sufferings, but everywhere they will meet obstacles and constraints. And all this will result from the fact that the Antichrist wants to be Lord over everything and become the ruler of the whole universe, and he will produce miracles and fantastic signs.

    Telephones, airplanes, submarines

    He will also give depraved wisdom to an unhappy man so that he will discover a way by which one man can carry on a conversation with another from one end of the earth to the other. At that time men will also fly through the air like birds and descend to the bottom of the sea like fish. And when they have achieved all this, these unhappy people will spend their lives in comfort without knowing, poor souls, that it is deceit of the Antichrist. And, the impious one! – he will so complete science with vanity that it will go off the right path and lead people to lose faith in the existence of God in three hypostases.

    The coming chastisement

    Then the All-good God will see the downfall of the human race and will shorten the days for the sake of those few who are being saved, because the enemy wants to lead even the chosen into temptation, if that is possible… then the sword of chastisement will suddenly appear and kill the Perverter and his servants.

    So, in sum, the Evangelicals are producing more converts for the simple fact that people’s egos are far stronger from all the indoctrination of the devil via the media cohorts that they can be Pope and Magistrium themselves. Does no one recall the exact same temptation of satan to Eve in the Garden of Eden?

    3:4. And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.

    3:5. For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and YOU SHALL BE AS GODS (my stress), knowing good and evil.

    3:6. And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband, who did eat.

    3:7. And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.


    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      But the talking snake didn’t lie. Bible God told them they would surely die if they ate of the tree of temptation, but they didn’t die. The snake also told them that they would become like gods knowing good and evil, and Gen 3:22 confirms that this is so. Bible God got His panties in a wad because the snake called Him out on His lie and punished the kids (and all of us) for doing something they couldn’t know was wrong until after they did it. He’s a real booger of a god, if you ask me.
      As for separation – Christianity has done nothing but separate since it began. The Catholic Church split right down the middle in 1045 with the Eastern Orthodox Church coming into existence. Martin Luther, of course did the rest. Prior to the establishment of the RCC, there were a number of different factions – most of which were accused of heresy and wiped out after power shifted to Rome, where mere men decided what the orthodoxy was and then systematically wiped out all resistance. I just love watching Catholics and Protestants hack away at their shared roots. Peter1589, your post is designed to separate and divide Catholics from Protestants, is it not? It’s what religion does.
      I think it’s telling that the very first thing the kids learned upon obtaining knowledge of good and evil is that God’s creation of the human body was bad – very bad; for the first thing they noticed was the need to cover it up, and the Abrahamic religions has been fixated on covering up sex ever since. Curses on whatever idiot added that to the script!
      Of course this is all tongue-in-cheek fun. We know from evolution, cosmology, tectonic plate research and other sciences that there were no first humans made of dirt and ribs, no talking snakes, no trees of temptation, no fig leaves of shame, no global flood, no mass Exodus from Egypt and no Conquest of Canaan. Once you remove all that – there’s no foundation for any of the Abrahamic religions, which may explain why they have separated and divided so much, and continue to do so, to this very day.

      1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

        They did die. If you understood spiritual truths and the Bible, you’d realize that. Evolution is the biggest farce every taught by a human. It’s built upon lies and wishes.

  27. Jeff Brady Reply

    Faith is about Jesus Christ, not a building or organized group of believers. The body of Christ is the one true church. This infighting between Christian religions is what will be our downfall. Christians stand up, stand proud, stand together.

  28. Clare Reply

    The Bible says “Where there is unity God commands blessing”. When “the Church” encompassing all denominations wakes up to the fact we need to work together and not make side swipes or sly digs at each other that’s when we’ll ALL see more people come to Jesus. Isn’t that surely what it’s all about? The Bible also says that by our love for one another as the body of Christ they will know that we are Jesus’ disciples.

    The real competition is the pubs and clubs and things that the world has to offer, not other Churches.

    Let’s speak well of the Bride of Christ as a collective hey?

    1. John Raymond Reply

      Clare, no such thinh as the Church as you describe it. Pro choice churches? Those that do not believe in the Eucharist? Confession? There is one Church and that is the Roman Catholic Church. I do not want any of your false beliefs.

  29. John Raymond Reply

    The Catholic Church is in a time of crisis. It is the one true faith. When you say evangelicals, how many “churches” is that? You are not talkling about one “church” but a bunch of man-made churches. Jesus promised them nothing, as a “church”. But He did promise us that the “gates of hell shall not prevail against us”. Yes, it looks bad for our Catholic Church but Jesus will keep His promise!!!!

  30. Stephen Reply

    This is spot on. I love this answer! As a former protestant, I can tell you that this is so completely true.

  31. Nathan Hindson Reply

    The Catholic Church blatantly and somewhat ignorantly ignore Jesus’ teachings and the rest of the bible. Praying to saints – against Gods word. Praying to Mary – against Gods word.
    Making Mary a diety – against Gods word.
    Praying to statues – against Gods word (and innately stupid)
    Calling a priest “father” – against Gods word
    Sign of the cross – against Gods word.
    Repetitious prayers I.e. The rosary – against Gods word
    Icons and statues – adamantly against Gods word
    The belief of “purgatory” – against Gods word
    Confessing sins to a priest – against Gods word
    All that, plus the fact that the Catholic Church has shaken hands with the Rothschild’s for a monetary bail out. FACT!

    1. johndelradice Reply

      Learn some humility. Getting on for 2000 years of saints and scholars of deeper knowledge of the Scriptures and holier lives have proved the truth – quite unlike your ignorant rant

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        I love to watch Christians go for each other’s throats. It’s the one thing you can absolutely depend on from the Abrahamic religions – separation and conflict. It’s still going on. When I was a kid, the refrain was, “Catholics, Catholics ring the bell, Protestants Protestants go to Hell!” So much religious love… over 2000 years of it, and still no peace; still no love, still no Jesus. Just how long is a “generation” anyway? In spite of religion, we have managed to pull ourselves out of the slime of the dark ages; and yet, here are religionists fighting with each other, over which of them gets to drag us back.

        1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

          Hahahaha…how pathetic you must be to think that pointing out the truth is considered “going at each other’s throats” Probably because you, as an atheist, have been destroyed a number of times by the truth and that’s how you cope with it.

          1. Patrick Gannon

            Actually I prefer the term ‘agnostic’ and I’m open to any “truth” for which you can provide objective evidence.

          2. Isaiah's Cry

            Agnostic. yeah, believing something’s out there, but don’t want to admit there is a God because that would make you accountable and you’d have to face who you really are. And it’s a good thing you put truth in quotes, because you are, in no way, interested in the truth. Only what makes you feel good and agrees with you.

          3. Patrick Gannon

            Agnosticism is not about belief. It is about knowing. A true agnostic doesn’t “believe” anything in my opinion – they either “know” it as a result of evidence or they remain open mindedly skeptical while awaiting evidence. Let’s say there is a god and He does hold us accountable. You’re going to show up with your tail tucked between your legs, proclaiming that you believed, said and did the right thing and begging entrance. I’m going to ask why there was no evidence, and how an intelligent being should be required to choose between thousands of gods and beliefs, when there is no evidence for any of them. I’m guessing that if there is a god, He will be more impressed by those who used the tools they were given (read the parable of the talents), and reserve His harshest punishment for those who buried the tools they were given in the garden and failed to put them to work. We’re both going to roll the dice and play the game in our own way. You’ve chosen subservience and a desire to live in a celestial N. Korea. I’ve chosen to use the tools I was born with, whether they came from some god, or more likely, simply evolved.
            The original topic is ‘why is it that evangelical protestants are more successful in making converts?”. Perhaps the question should be, why is the largest growing group, that of the “Nones?” Why are few converts being made on either side of the Christian divide? Perhaps it is because Christianity is becoming widely known as the “religion of hostility to the other.” It doesn’t matter which denomination you look at – what you find is hostility. Hostility to other denominations, other religions, and of course hostility to non-believers and free-thinkers. When I get into these discussions, invariably the attacks turn personal. This is where both sides, lose any hope for making a convert. So I love it when I get attacked. The lurkers get to see “hostility to the other” in action, and they join the Nones. I particularly like to be told that I’m going to Hell – there’s nothing more “Christian” than that! (But which hell? There are four).

            You accuse me of not being interested in the truth and in only that which makes me feel good and agrees with me. Lets think about that. What if the atheist view is correct? What if this is it, and when the lights go out, the play is finished? There is nothing else. That might be a difficult truth for a lot of people to face. If this was proven to be true, that might not make everyone feel good. Think about it. Atheists and agnostics are facing the truth, not hiding from it. They are facing the very real possibility that this is the only ride we get. For many it means living this life to its fullest because there may not be a second chance. For some, it’s rather depressing. In all candor, I think it raises the question of whether it’s better for an individual to face the truth, or lie to themselves. I think this explains why some atheists return to the fold – perhaps they just can’t handle what might be the real truth. Maybe they saw the truth and decided to rejoin the herd in hiding from it. I don’t know. I have trouble seeing how anyone who has gotten rid of all that fear would want to pile it back on again. I would tell such people that it’s OK to “hope” that there’s an afterlife where the god is not a monster, but don’t have “faith” in it; don’t pretend to know things you don’t know.
            What interests me is where the hostility comes from, aside from the concept of separation inherent to the Abrahamic religions. It’s my conjecture that the most hostile are those who believe the strongest, but who are also the more educated. Their brains know that there is no evidence for the beliefs, and this creates, I think, (and research in cognitive dissonance supports it), this creates an internal cognitive conflict. Remember “Lost in Space” and Robby the Robot saying “That does not compute?” (Probably not, LOL). Anyway, just as Robby broke down due to cognitive conflict, I think the hostility of believers to “the other” is a symptom of this cognitive conflict within the brain. This and other forums provide an excellent lab for studying the subject. In any event, the net effect of personal attacks and similar acts of Christian “hostility to the other,” is that all the Christian denominations are chasing away the next generation of converts. Keep up the good work!

      2. Rob Adams Reply

        No, it hasn’t been 2000 years of saints and scholars. Try more like 1600. duh. Why are Catholics such liars for?

      3. Rob Adams Reply

        Try 1600 years of false teaching and unbiblical doctrines

  32. Rob Adams Reply

    All I can say is “Thank God for the Reformation that allowed God’s TRUE Church to come forth from the apostate “church” of the RCC. The RCC is built upon lies and false doctrines.

  33. B.T Reply

    If the Last Judgement is about how much knowledge one has of the scripture, many protestants would go to the heaven. But if it is about how much one has loved his neighbour then many catholics would be on the right side.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Oh sure, the Catholics who love LGBTs would be on the right side, and the ones who want equal rights for women would be on the right side, and the ones who would allow women to control their own bodies would be on the right side, and the ones who support contraception would be on the right side – but all those other Catholics…. they only love their neighbor if their neighbor believes the same things they do – and this is true of those on the evangelical side as well. Christianity has become the religion of hostility to the other. The news day after day provides examples of Christian hostility to those who don’t believe the same thing they do. Articles like this one are intended to deepen that wall of separation – in this case separation between Catholics and Evangelicals. That’s the whole idea — to drive people apart. Pick sides. Hate the other. Tell the other that they are wrong and imply that you are better as a result. The whole religion is all about being separate from each other; and with separation comes mistrust and fear and hate. Has it ever been otherwise?

  34. Dominic Benedetto Reply

    I’ll tell you why. Because being Catholic is difficult work. If you want to be told you’re saved without really doing anything, you can be a heretic. Why do you think the ‘reformers’ left the Church? They didn’t want to be told they were going to Hell for looting the monasteries and sanctioning usury. They didn’t want to told they needed to do penance and fast for their wickedness. They wanted to remain wicked. If you’d prefer to go to Hell, the road is wide. There are no speed limits and no tolls. You can join the Baptists or the Presbyterians (or the Novus Ordo) and be told you’re saved. You won’t hear about mortal sin or fasting or abstinence. You’ll be allowed to divorce and contracept and maybe even watch a little porn. And you’ll a nice wide open road in front of you.

  35. easeltine Reply

    I am not writing this as a Catholic or Protestant, rather a Christian.
    If one defines “Catholic” as the Nicene Creed has it, then one is “Catholic” if they are a Christian, be they Roman Catholic or Protestant.
    One is only a Christian if they can truthfully confess that the LORD God Almighty, second member of the Holy Trinity, the LORD Jesus Christ, is their person LORD and Savior. – Apostles’, Nicene, Athanasian Creed, Dominus Iesus. This is based on Scriptures – Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 9:6, 44:6, John 1:1, 14, 8:58, Acts 4:12, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 John 4:1-6, and Revelation 1:8.
    The requirements if a person is a Christian or not are found in Matthew 7, 25, and the Book of 1 John.
    Enough with your fighting! Stop taking Ephesians 2:8,9 out of context, remember vs. 10, and try to understand what James Chapter 2 is saying. No, I am not Roman Catholic, I am a Christian, and refuse to go to an extreme declaring that NO Roman Catholic/Catholic is saved, most are not going to heaven, and most Protestants are not going to heaven either.
    If you are not a “catholic” in the sense of the Nicene Creed you are NOT going to heaven, so I will say it, if the Protestant is NOT a “Catholic,” they are going to hell.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      Which “Hell” are they going to; after all there are four of them: Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus. These four words were translated to the pagan word “hell” when the bible was translated to English. Look up those four hells, and let us know which of these hell’s 6 billion people are going to for the crime of not believing what you believe…

  36. Isaiah's Cry Reply

    Patrick had said to me, “Yes, personal attacks are always good when you can’t answer a question” Yes, and the truth I pointed out is even better when I actually did answer your question. Ignoring both is the sign of a weak mind.

  37. Isaiah's Cry Reply

    Patrick has said to me “Just because I was not encouraged to read it as a Catholic kid, I did in fact end up reading it cover to cover – several times. I wouldn’t say I „understand it“ because nobody living now can know exactly what was first intended by the writers, the origins of the stories, and of course there are no original manuscripts for any part of the bible.” Thanks for at least admitting you don’t understand the Bible. I see that doesn’t stop you from arguing with people who do. Yeah, you’re not very bright.

    1. Patrick Gannon Reply

      And you aren’t very polite; but you are very Christian.

      1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

        Why am I not surprised that you find the truth “unpolite” Do you need your safe place to go so you don’t have to hear the truth? It’s within reach. Just click on that little X in the upper right corner of your screen and you won’t have to hear the truth from me again. Probably why your atheist-lite. You can’t tolerate the truth

  38. Isaiah's Cry Reply

    That’s an easy answer: Because the RCC isn’t the true Church. duh

  39. David Porter Reply

    The Catholic Church protestantised itself in the ’60s. So it no longer offers anything to differentiate itself. The protestants are better at leading people astray because they’ve been doing it so much longer. If the Catholic church returned to its true traditions, it will gain many more converts because people will be able to see the truth in the Church.

  40. Patrick Gannon Reply

    Well, the topic subject is no longer pertinent! According to the latest statistics, Evangelicals are no longer more successful than Catholics, but are failing at the same rate – at least among registered voters. It is the “nones” who are growing fastest, and now represent the country’s (USA) largest religious voting block. The Washington Post just reported the latest Pew Research Report, that shows the “nones” are now the largest voting block in the US, having increased from 14% to 21%, with Catholics dropping from 23% to 20% and evangelicals, even at 20% after having increased conversion rates slightly for about 4 years and then losing those gains. Mainline Protestants have plummeted from 19% to 14% over the last 8 years.
    So the question should now be, why are atheists and agnostics more successful? And Trump just selected a VP who comes from the group that is losing ground. Might want to reconsider that Donald…
    Sweet news for a Friday afternoon!

    1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

      Define “success” Like….winning a battle but losing the war, such as atheists do? Or do you define success as wasting your whole life accumulating things only to lose it all and your eternal soul in the end. “What good is it to gain the whole world, but lose your soul?” (Paraphrased). It is of no good at all. But, understanding your extremely miniscule understanding of God and Christianity, I can see how it goes over your head. Not to mention that you’re a pathological liar and a deceiver. To which I ponder who actually takes you seriously, and would one who would believe a liar like you be truly “educated” or “successful”

      1. Patrick Gannon Reply

        Success, as in making converts who are also registered voters. The article speaks for itself – you can find it online.
        I’m curious – were you an altar boy as a young Catholic?

  41. Rev. R. Vincent Warde Reply

    I don’t know if the authors ever check these comments, but this evangelical minister was not the least offended by this article. I’m from a Wesleyan denomination, so we have a bit more in common with Catholics than Calvinists. In my ministry, as you might expect, I encountered many who were raised Catholic – and in the vast majority of cases, God used that foundation. Yes, I have seen both people who were raised Catholic and those who were lapsed Catholic come to a personal faith in Jesus Christ. Some remained within the evangelical church – while others became active Catholics. In my book, either outcome is a victory for Christ.

    I personally praise God for the progress that has been made towards healing the division among Christians – however, even with that division, we are united by the Holy Spirit. Additionally, we are united by a common core of Christian beliefs. For instance, I have been in Churches where we used the Apostle’s Creed regularly. The truths in that statement of faith are truths we hold in common. Additionally, the last three Popes have been willing to acknowledge core truths in our doctrines. More than this, at least in America, the Catholic Church has been willing to join in evangelistic efforts alongside evangelical churches.

    I have infinitely more in common with a Catholic believer who believes in the inspiration and authority of Scripture, who believes in the Virgin Birth, who believes in Christ’s death upon the Cross for us, who believes in the resurrection and in Christ’s return than I do with a theologically liberal Protestant who denies some or all of these things.

    Being Evangelical is not really about denominations. It is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and sharing the life change ospel of Jesus Christ. Since my salvation at age 18, I have been privileged to know many Catholics who also had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. One of them was a Priest. I firmly believe that it is quite possible to be an “evangelical Catholic” – even if some Catholics and many evangelicals do not believe that such people exist.

    As far as the relationships between our Churches is concerned, there are several ways we can do ecuminism:

    1) We can decide that doctrine isn’t all that important, so why bother with it? This approach is typically used by theological liberals.
    2) We can decide that either Catholics or evangelicals (whichever we aren’t) are not really Christians at all. This approach is typically used by theological hyper-conservatives.
    3) We can agree that doctrine is very important – and then decide to rally around the core Christian beliefs we share as brothers and sisters in Christ. I prefer this approach 🙂

    Pope Francis demonstrated this attitude when he went to worship with Italian evangelicals. Not everyone was in agreement with his actions, at least in the press. When asked why he had done this, his reply was “I went to be with my brothers”.

    Amen to that!

    1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

      Have you ever wondered why a Catholic can visit a Protestant church (I can only attest to the churches that I’ve attended/visited) and freely and unashamedly take communion with us….but a Protestant cannot visit a Catholic church and take communion with them without permission? This is what happens to a cult who’s leader believes that he is Christ’s replacement here on earth. This is what happens when a cult believes that only a priest can absolve some sins. This is what happens when a cult teaches that you can pray to dead people and that they will answer your prayers. This is what happens when a cult worships idols. This is what happens when a cult believes that He needs our help.

    2. Patrick Gannon Reply

      And yet all of you are losing to the “Nones” who have had enough of Christianity which they have come to know as “the religion of hostility to the other.” Indeed evangelicals largely share Catholic hostility to LGBTs, women, Muslims, etc., though in my brief review of your denomination, you seem to be a little more open minded than some others.
      The latest polls show that the “Nones” are galloping past the faithful. You’re losing the next generation. Catholics push them out by denying communion or remarriage to divorced Catholics who leave and take the next generation with them. Many evangelicals tell their youth lies about six day creations, and global floods. completely destroying their credibility among those who have learned critical thinking skills. All religions insist that they hold a lock on the truth and the others are wrong, thereby denying any chance for universal peace and harmony. Most of all, Catholics and many evangelicals including your denomination are advocates for the most evil concept ever devised by man. The idea that a mere human living but a handful of decades, erring as any human will, would be sent to “hell with its everlasting misery and separation from God is the final abode of those who neglect this great salvation.” (From your articles of religion). This is pure evil. There is no justification for the eternal torment of a mere human being, particularly if Yahweh/Jesus knows the outcome in advance. Would you impregnate your wife if you knew that your child would grow up and be thrown into a pit of fire for all of eternity? How evil would you have to be to do that? To do that you’d have to be so evil that you’d need to “command” that your child love you. Who among us has to command that our children love us?
      Religionists believe things that their brains know there is no evidence for. This means you lie to yourselves. I think believers (not just religious beliefs, but any belief unsupported by objective evidence) create internal cognitive conflicts in their brains which have no objective evidence for gods or afterlives, and are quite aware of this. How can this be good for us? How can lying to ourselves be healthy?

      1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

        “The latest polls show that the “Nones” are galloping past the faithful.” Let ’em gallop their way to hell. Might does not make right. Sorry. Truth is not determined by how many people believe it. And whether you believe it or not, doesn’t change the fact that there is a God. Even if every person in the world refused to believe it, it’s not like He’s going to *poof!!* disappear. lol He’ll still exist.

        1. Isaiah's Cry Reply

          “… who have had enough of Christianity ” Translation: “…who have had enough of morals.”

          ” they have come to know as “the religion of hostility to the other.” Translation: “If you disagree with me, and use logical arguments to shoot me down, then you are a religion of hostility”

          “you seem to be a little more open minded than some others.” Translation: “I do wish, however, that you were like me….so open minded that my brain fell out.”

          The rest of your comment is just one big jumble of “I don’t know what the heck I’m talking about”.

          1. Isaiah's Cry

            I’m sorry….was that supposed to change the truth? Well….it didn’t. There still is a God, and you still have no idea what you’re talking about.

  42. bt Reply

    for the original question as to how/why break-away churches are able to influence/change more people than the RC Church, i think this would be an eye-opener.


    As I pondered the phenomenon of Protestant Reformation, I wondered why God would allow such rebellion to arise and flourish. So I looked to what Scripture said about such rebellion. I saw that rather than sending immediate destruction upon the rebellious, as in the case of Korah [cf. Num.16:1 ff], God sometimes gave those who rebelled exactly what they ASKED for, BUT with A PUNITIVE TWIST.

    For example, when the Jews complained to God that they were tired of eating manna and wanted meat, God dealt with their rebellion, saying, “You want meat? I’ll give you meat. In fact, I’ll give you so much meat it will come out of your nostrils until you are sick of it.” God caused a great plague, probably due to spoiled meat, that killed many in the wilderness [Num.11:18-20]. The people recognized this punishment for their ingratitude and rebellion and repented, [but within a few years they were once again straying from God].

    One of the signs of a deteriorating society is a high divorce rate; this was certainly true in ancient Israel. Rather than CONTINUALLY PLEADING with them to stop, God ALLOWED Israel to have their divorces as a sign of their hard-heartedness against Him [Matt.19:8, Jn.12:39-40]. They wanted their own way. So God allowed them to HAVE their own way, allowing them to sink into apostasy. In the end, God gave Israel a taste of their own medicine, using the very same divorce law for which they had CLAMORED, to “divorce” Himself from that spiritually adulterous nation [cf. Is.50:1, Jer.3:8].

    When the Israelites didn’t want God to be their King, asking instead for an earthly king, God knew they were rejecting Him. So He turned them over to wicked earthly kings [1 Sam.8:1 f]. Only later did they realize that when God was their King He has been sparing them the treachery of earthly rulers. Most of Israel’s kings were very wicked, leading many people into idolatry and destruction. God ALLOWED these rebellions TO RUN THEIR COURSES but worked out His secret plan, nonetheless.

    I believe God has dealt similarly with the Protestant rebellion against the Catholic Church. If God spoke now as He spoke in Numbers 11, He might say: “You want a different church? I’ll give you a different church. In fact, I’ll give you so many churches you won’t be able to count them all.”
    Isn’t this exactly what has happened? God has given the protesters what they wanted – AND MUCH MORE: one long, continuous line of protestors – protestors protesting against the Catholic Church and protestors protesting against their fellow protestors. This plague of “Protestantism” has spawned thousands of quarrelling sects. Time itself has shown that Protestantism is not God’s plan for His Church…

    [From the book SURPRISED BY TRUTH by Patrick Madrid – The Testimony of Bob Sungenis]

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